Forums >Racing>2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks)
Andy- Yes the one run I had was snowy and chilly but then I had to abandon outdoors due to the freeze! It looked like an awesome place to run in normal weather and if my daughter opts for Tennessee I'm sure I'll be hitting you up for running routes. You can tell that they just don't have the experience/infrastructure to handle snow/ice. Up here it's crappy during the storm but by the next day its usually run-able (at least in Boston).
PS- See how I effortlessly shifted from bitching about the heat of the summer to complaining about the snow/ice. If I ever do really embrace the treadmill I'll have to start complaining about the HVAC in the gym
darkwave- I get pissed off when anyone pulls away from me Especially at the end of a race... That's how I knew I was in the right group.
5K 18:36 (2023), 10K 39:40 (2022), 1/2 1:24:37 (2023), full 2:58:36 (2015)
This is the way.
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Runway5 / National 5k Champs, 16:22, National Masters AG Champ!
Up next: Still working on that...
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Overweight per CDC BMI
Andy - would love to see the Strava map of your living room laps lol.
It was actually pretty beneficial because most of us run in a straight line 99.5% of the time. After all the cuts and sharp turns, I could really feel it in my hips. Garmin gave me a load score of 179 for the hour workout which is roughly the same as what it gave me for a 12 mile run at easy pace. I had the workout on my watch on strength training so no GPS but I doubt it would have been useable inside the house.
I did record the GPS of me playing capture the flag with the XC kids a couple months ago. The lines looked like a bowl of spaghetti.
Memphis / 38 male
5k - 20:39 / 10k - 43:48 / Half - 1:34:47 / Full - 3:38:10
Problem Child
Training Question (here we go again) Suppose, hypothetically, one is training primarily for flat road races. Is there still substantial benefit from including a fair amount of "vert"? By this I don't mean hill sprints, I mean 1. Frequently doing easy runs and long runs on hilly terrain. 2. Doing uphill tempo and/or VO2 max intervals, either on a treadmill or up a mountain if one has access. And by this I mean on a "reasonable" incline between say 3% and 6%, which is what is typically found on roads. I imagine it's probably not worth it to log the crazy vert we see from someone like Krash, but I'm wondering if frequently logging something around 3,000 - 5,000 feet per week (or around 900 - 1500 meters) would be worth it?
Training Question (here we go again)
Suppose, hypothetically, one is training primarily for flat road races. Is there still substantial benefit from including a fair amount of "vert"? By this I don't mean hill sprints, I mean
1. Frequently doing easy runs and long runs on hilly terrain.
2. Doing uphill tempo and/or VO2 max intervals, either on a treadmill or up a mountain if one has access. And by this I mean on a "reasonable" incline between say 3% and 6%, which is what is typically found on roads.
I imagine it's probably not worth it to log the crazy vert we see from someone like Krash, but I'm wondering if frequently logging something around 3,000 - 5,000 feet per week (or around 900 - 1500 meters) would be worth it?
hills pay the bills. You can do a lot of training on hills as I've recently learned. Running hard for 3 minutes is running hard for 3 minutes.
Just look at my Strava. I find it easier to do it by time than pace because the terrain is different, and running up hills is harder than running fast on the flats. You'll know the effort, and surprisingly Garmin will tell you the benefits of the workout actually match the goal. It actually makes training fun in the "new challenge" sort of way, and you gain some confidence going fast on trails.
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/13577252237
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/13279373220
EDIT: As darkwave said there is benefit training the DOWN hill as much as the UP hill. Running 6:50 or faster downhill takes a lot of confidence in foot placement, balance, and learning how to slam on the brakes and hit the turns like a Formula 1 race car driver (Emerson Fittipaldi anyone?)
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Not running-related, but I had to respond. I think the difference is more that research is something that takes a long time and the answers are found very slowly. The immediate response and aid you give as a police officer means that you get an immediate satisfaction of knowing that what you've done has value, rather than those who work their whole lives and may actually never arrive at that satisfaction, or just do it once or twice. And the job security-- while it may look like most research is done by folks trying to earn job security, most of the real research is done when you're not nervous from year to year if you're going to have a job, or even going around teaching at multiple institutions (and not having time for research) because you may not have that stable job yet... The lack of teamwork and just trying to prove someone else wrong thing isn't totally off the mark, though often people are working as teams (with maybe one or two folks getting all/most of the credit) to prove other teams wrong (or, less frequently, right).
Not running-related, but I had to respond. I think the difference is more that research is something that takes a long time and the answers are found very slowly. The immediate response and aid you give as a police officer means that you get an immediate satisfaction of knowing that what you've done has value, rather than those who work their whole lives and may actually never arrive at that satisfaction, or just do it once or twice.
And the job security-- while it may look like most research is done by folks trying to earn job security, most of the real research is done when you're not nervous from year to year if you're going to have a job, or even going around teaching at multiple institutions (and not having time for research) because you may not have that stable job yet...
The lack of teamwork and just trying to prove someone else wrong thing isn't totally off the mark, though often people are working as teams (with maybe one or two folks getting all/most of the credit) to prove other teams wrong (or, less frequently, right).
Publish or Perish. Publications can bring you funding, and funding can create job security.
I say this as someone who actually wanted to do research after med school wasn't appealing (student's attitudes, and I wasn't smart enough) and Dental school didn't happen. Research was always regarded, to me, as the people who discover the things to help everyone. When I started to see more of how it ACTUALLY works I lost lots of respect for it. Much like my current job in "environmental protection" where the protection doesn't seem to be 100% focused on the environment.
I had a gig on Friday night so my main session for the weekend was yesterday, a steady long run slower than marathon pace but in the same zone. It was pretty warm, 27C and I ran at the worst time, about 11am so high sun and no wind making it feel warmer. This was a good day to hopefully avoid my cramp issues that I get in this zone as early as 25km in races. I took 2 gels and planned one pass of the car to get a 700ml bottle containing 2 doses of Endura electrolyte + carb drink. In hindsight I should have planned on 2 passes, I lost a ton of fluid on this run. Interestingly, I felt the same soreness in my inner left quad that I felt at Selwyn that then led to cramp. I first felt it as early as 10km and thought this may be a tough day with the lack of sleep and the heat. It did give me an opportunity to practice my mental skills - I had a ton of negative thoughts, from very early. At halfway I was thinking it was unlikely I'd finish the prescribed distance. But I hung in there and kept ticking off the kilometres and the further I got the better I felt mentally and I noted that energy wise I was feeling good and the sore spot wasn't getting worse. There was very little shelter and at about 25km it started feeling really hot and I went from feeling cooked to almost shivering a couple of times. At 27km I felt the quad get a bit worse and thought cramp was imminent - I backed off the pace just a touch for a couple of minutes then felt fine again, with no real hint of any cramp again. So a really good one to get under the belt, hopefully without too much damage done. My legs pulled up fine but the heat had some impact. I was a bit lightheaded and moving very slowly for the rest of the day. I had 4 litres of powerade and water before I felt hydrated again. Even with all that I felt very dry when I woke up this morning. Some lessons learned on planning my nutrition better on warm days.
I had a gig on Friday night so my main session for the weekend was yesterday, a steady long run slower than marathon pace but in the same zone. It was pretty warm, 27C and I ran at the worst time, about 11am so high sun and no wind making it feel warmer. This was a good day to hopefully avoid my cramp issues that I get in this zone as early as 25km in races. I took 2 gels and planned one pass of the car to get a 700ml bottle containing 2 doses of Endura electrolyte + carb drink. In hindsight I should have planned on 2 passes, I lost a ton of fluid on this run. Interestingly, I felt the same soreness in my inner left quad that I felt at Selwyn that then led to cramp. I first felt it as early as 10km and thought this may be a tough day with the lack of sleep and the heat. It did give me an opportunity to practice my mental skills - I had a ton of negative thoughts, from very early. At halfway I was thinking it was unlikely I'd finish the prescribed distance. But I hung in there and kept ticking off the kilometres and the further I got the better I felt mentally and I noted that energy wise I was feeling good and the sore spot wasn't getting worse. There was very little shelter and at about 25km it started feeling really hot and I went from feeling cooked to almost shivering a couple of times. At 27km I felt the quad get a bit worse and thought cramp was imminent - I backed off the pace just a touch for a couple of minutes then felt fine again, with no real hint of any cramp again.
So a really good one to get under the belt, hopefully without too much damage done. My legs pulled up fine but the heat had some impact. I was a bit lightheaded and moving very slowly for the rest of the day. I had 4 litres of powerade and water before I felt hydrated again. Even with all that I felt very dry when I woke up this morning. Some lessons learned on planning my nutrition better on warm days.
I'd suggest adding caffeine to intensify the effect. If you need any ideas for negative thoughts feel free to reach out.
Did you massage the legs, or maybe it's just the lack of sleep causing some cramps/tight legs? I had a similar ankle issue back in the 20s where just about the 4 mile mark, and multiples of 4, made the ankle hurt so bad I wanted to walk. I solved this issue by running 5 miles one way and turning around. Eventually the ankle stopped being so mad at me.
Marky Mark Something about puddle crossings? I'm pretty sure it was "just above freezing" this day.
https://zenfolio.page.link/HVaDJ
Mile 8 of a 50k. Sorry for the illogical distance references.
Way too cool 50k 2022. Bib 150. So much pain hiking uphill.
Check out the height on the splash.
https://zenfolio.page.link/eEUon
Fishy Did I tell you about the weather for when I ran the Boston Marathon? In my experience the race has good weather so ice/snow running isn't necessary. Even thought I did it and earned the title of being a "legit marathoner" I'd avoid all outside running until the weather......
pFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. I have a set of YaxTrax for ice/snow runs. The ones with the spikes really make an improvement. Since we have more frozen water than snow here they've come in handy for longer (time not distance) runs. If you don't have a pair and have money burning a hole in you're pocket I'd 8/10 recommend them. I deduct two points because having them means you have one less reason to not go running. fuck running. running fucking sucks. Especially parade running.
My week went "okay." I hit my speed workout goals. Weather was garbage, I didn't sleep well, woke up too late or unmotivated to run, and just happened to blow off the weekend for some nonsense reason. I probably could have done a long run while the family was at relatives having fun. I just...didn't care. 5K training seems to be slightly easier to blow off long runs, while also knowing I want to do well at New York (assuming I get in) and would really like a final PR.
I had a second interview on Friday, and now I'm just waiting to hear back. Honestly, even though I think it went well I'm more expecting the standard "thanks for applying. We went with someone else" type response simply because it's all I've known for every interview I've attended since 2018. Maybe I'm just getting too old to care and I've finally accepted the 'perks' of my job are being able to get my running in when my attitude isn't shit.
I went running last night mostly out of attitude change. Maybe I'm not normal in the mentality I have. I was getting upset I'd had all this gear to make running in "bad" weather possible and didn't go running. I was making excuse after excuse until I just pulled some David Goggins out. He has this clip where he hops on a treadmill and thinks "I don't want to be here" so he made himself flip a switch until it went away. I made myself do the same thing. My fancy gear was at the office, so I put on a hooded sweatshirt, my sweet lighted vest the wife bought me, and a headlamp. It was raining lightly/just finished seconds before I went out. I felt better when I was done. Almost like sending a kid to be alone with themselves when they're just upset at everything, and as the adult you're not letting it bring anyone else down. Grumpy Monkey spends a day telling everyone he isn't grumpy to a point he yells it out loud after people keep suggesting he do something to not be grumpy. I then stayed up until 11pm watching the internet.
Random thought I just had. Aaron Kuen is doing better.
https://www.kcra.com/article/california-international-marathon-aaron-kuen/42301001
https://www.gofundme.com/f/k5ss4-aarons-fund?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_content=undefined&utm_medium=copy_link_all&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined
Marby It only seems to really kick in during longer runs. I commented this on my Strava run today. The pattern seems to be Sunday LR irritates it, take Monday off, then Tuesday everything is ok again. Maybe it's on its way out just slowly. I have been doing a lot of strengthening exercises for my glutes and abductors, since the biggest predictor of IT band issues is weakness in those areas I hear. Gonna have jacked hips and a jacked butt soon.
RP Those runs look interesting. My issue with downhill running at the moment is that irritates the IT band the most. But For sure it has benefits when one is healthy. Lol at the 8/10 on the shoe comment. And running doesn't suck. Deep down you know that. I would argue it is one of the very few things in life that doesn't suck. Going to the store? Sucks. Driving? Sucks. Most things that are classified as "work" or a "job", SUCK!!! Taxes suck, I mean the list goes on and on. Running is the shit. I wish I had the talent to do it professionally.
darkwave I need a good 5k or 10k to run ideally 2-3 weeks out from the 10 mile on February 25th. What's the deal with the By George races? Where do you park? Are the courses fast? Where do you park lol? That's like a huge deciding factor for me, pre race stress. Or ideally lack thereof.
I also hate it when a male 2:2X marathoner in his 20's pulls away from me. It's much worse when you are also a male in their 20's. Or when an NCAA athlete you follow on Strava does 2 mile repeats significantly faster than your 2 mile PR.
Mother of Cats
The By George races could be a good choice (I'm doing the 5K). Possibly your best choice for this time of year. The courses are very fast if there is no wind (big if) - as they are a simple out and back (or double out and back) on Hains Point. The courses are certified, and usually set accurately. The races are hand timed, not chip timed (they only cost $15 to enter, and you get what you pay for).
Parking is very easy and stress free. Usually they let people park in the golf center parking lot, which has more than enough spaces for all runners and is close to the start/finish line. If for some reason you can't use that, then there's the tennis center parking lot a 1/4 mile away, and they also allow people to park along the side of Ohio Drive.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
My week:
36 miles running, 40 minutes on the arc-trainer, and 3 hours pool-running.M: 90 minutes pool-running and upperbody weights/coreT: 9 miles on treadmill, including a workout of 12x90 seconds on (8.2-8.4 mph) and 60 seconds off (6 mph). Followed with leg strengthwork W: upperbody weights/core and 8 miles very easy (9:23) on treadmillTh: 90 minutes pool-running and streaming pilatesF: 5 miles very easy (9:32) on treadmill and then an arc-trainer workout of 6x4 minutes hard/72 seconds easy. Followed with leg strengthwork.Sa: 9 miles very easy (9:27) on treadmill and streaming yogaSu: 5 miles easy (9:25) on treadmill with some hills, followed by upper body weights/core.
Snow, ice, and very cold/dry air kept me on the treadmill or in the pool all of this week. Of my two workouts, I did an easier fartlek on the treadmill (just focusing on good form) and then used the arc-trainer for one workout so that I could really hammer. Stayed out late on Saturday night, so no long run on Sunday.
Not an 80%er
Piwi - I'm partial to watching topless females instead, but I'm not judging if you prefer to watch Nick Bare (no pun intended) 😂
WCRunner - thanks for the details, it seems mine is not that. It's probably just that I'm very uncoordinated since forever.I still hit toes and calves on furniture, I'll sometimes drop stuff because I forget to hold them.
1003 club - Some dude on reddit invented the 1003 club, yet another challenge that I can't even sniff at.
It's basically lifting 1000lbs as the sum of your 3 powerlifting lifts (bench press, squat, deadlift) and then run a sub 3 hour marathon on the same week. Seeing as the sum of my current PRs is barely above 500lbs, I can forget about this challenge for the moment. Never mind the fact you're also supposed to run a sub 3 marathon on the same week.
But it sounds super fun, especially for those of us who are not born to run a moose mug.
The inventor also states that if you're under 160lbs in body weight then this challenge becomes immensely more difficult, which makes sense.
He ended up achieving it by lifting 1010lbs (220 bench / 365 squat / 425 deadlift) 6 days before the marathon, then running a 2h56 marathon on the Sunday. Mighty impressive when he weighs between 165 to 170lbs.
He also came up with a variation for females which goes as this:
sum of lifts is 600lbs + 3h30 marathon
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials)
Tool to generate Strava weekly
darkwave Thanks for the info. I miiiiiiight hop in the 10k. Seems like a logical move.
Flavio wow that is impressive lifting and running combo.
Ryan Hall does some beastly stuff too. Usually it's the sub 5 mile with some massive deadlift beforehand.
I must like that stuff as I subscribe to a few of those hybrid athletes on YouTube
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
Mmerkle you are not privy to the years of "marathon training sucks" statements made by yours truly. In addition, "fuck work. go running." was a popular sentiment I'd expressed.
Is it ANY downhill running, or just hard/technical downhill running? Fast running? slow running? treadmill running? I'm of the mindsent YOUR IT band is the weak point and needs to be strengthened just like any other muscle. I had IT band problems for a long time. I used KT tape, tried different shoes, ran different speeds and ultimately running more miles made it better. I had to get the other muscles around it stronger becuase the IT band was doing so much work. Treat it as you would any strength workout. I know you can't completely remove the IT band's contribution to running. All you can TRY to do is maybe alleviate it. Either that or run through the pain and have a serious conversation with the legs during a casual jog. It isn't really fair for the IT band to carry the whole time, and at the same time the IT band needs to step it up.
flavio people will create things so they can stand out. It's how World Records were created. Food eating challenges. Distance challenges. 4x4x48 challenges. Degrees and abbreviations/acronyms before and/or after the name. Congratulations to the guy for lifting a lot and running a sub-3. I can find a way to be humble about my accomplishments and not create a group dedicated to people "like me." I remember the cool kids in high school. People really don't grow out of it and even then I didn't care about the groups/cliques because most of the time the people in them were cool individually, and collectively when surrounded by the group they kinda sucked.
I think I have the covid. I say this because my head is bugging me, I apparently gave myself a bloody nose this morning, and Dayquill doesn't make me feel 100% better. I blame the folks in my office saving their sick time for some other day they don't have a persistant cough. Oh well. Still waiting to hear back from an interview last week, and I'm expecting a "thanks but we're going another direction" email.