Forums >General Running>Yasso 800s and Boston Qualifier
Runs in the rain
runnerclay - Thanks for the definitions! You would think I'd know all this stuff already! If I understand it correctly the low heart rate training gives the ideal training pace as that where your heart rate is 180 minus your age. so I should run with a HR of only 109? The formula does say if you are over 65 and have been training for two year with no issues you can add another 10 beats, so 119?
Looking at my workouts I see a number of my easier runs, at like a 15 minute mile pace, are around 120 average HR, so I guess I go to the right number naturally when I'm not working on speed. However, a recent short run at a 12mm pace had me at 140 and when I did the interval quarter miles at like a 9:30 pace the heart rate was above 150. I still think some high intensity runs might be beneficial even early in he training and I wish to continue with them as like an experiment. But I will take caution not to overstress and risk injuries.
The cutoff time for the marathons I have done is set at six hours. a 13:45 pace. When I have trained for a marathon my pace has always been faster than that! Typically around a4 1/2 hour finish. But the 2018 marathon, that I showed above I had a 70 mile week, was slow for me with just an 11:25 pace for a 5 hour finish. The quick ramp up in weekly millage was not too good as compared to building up a big base over time. In 2000 I ran in 90 degree heat and ended walking the last half, still finished with around a 5 1/2 hour time! So no worries as of yet about "beating the clock!"
I will give more priority to increasing my weekly distance, but right now with heavy snow and rain coming I might not make progress this week! I think I may get in a few treadmill miles today.
Long distance runner, what you standin' there for?Get up, get out, get out of the door!
runnerclay - Great that you were able to BQ in 2011! Good running weather and a flat course helps. What is "MAFF LHR" ? I have a shelf full of running books, including marathon training ones like Pfizinger's, Hansons, Daniel's, Galloway's and some others. In the books are race prediction tables with race times predicted based on best times for various distances. When you say you run to "beat the time clock" I assume you mean your goal times. The mile repeats look like a good training tool. Surly Bill - If you got the speed but lack endurance, then running short distances at the required pace will not guarantee you will meet the goal. Runbundle has a lot of information, it will take time to explore. Thanks for telling me about it! Several comments have mentioned the difficulty I will have in increasing my weekly millage to 40 miles or over. As long as the increase is gradual I haven't had issues with ramping up my distance. Usually I can add a couple of miles each week! I do find that the more miles I run, the faster I get! Even without doing speedwork you just adapt to running with better form and fitness. Here is a graph of weekly distance leading up to 2018 half and full marathons. I was about at my current level of distance, max 20 mile weeks, but in 11 weeks I did a 70 mile week! Now being 5 years older I'm not sure if I can progress that fast, but I'm sure I could get to 40 mile weeks fairly quickly! Despite getting in some high millage weeks I started late in training and my training base was smaller, so I was not so fast in the race. I think building more gradual for a much longer period would bring better results! Note the purple bar before the marathon. I did a 17 mile run followed the next day by an 18 miler a week before the race. Usually I like to do one over twenty, but some say it's counterproductive doing training run that last over 3 hours.
runnerclay - Great that you were able to BQ in 2011! Good running weather and a flat course helps. What is "MAFF LHR" ? I have a shelf full of running books, including marathon training ones like Pfizinger's, Hansons, Daniel's, Galloway's and some others. In the books are race prediction tables with race times predicted based on best times for various distances. When you say you run to "beat the time clock" I assume you mean your goal times. The mile repeats look like a good training tool.
Surly Bill - If you got the speed but lack endurance, then running short distances at the required pace will not guarantee you will meet the goal. Runbundle has a lot of information, it will take time to explore. Thanks for telling me about it!
Several comments have mentioned the difficulty I will have in increasing my weekly millage to 40 miles or over. As long as the increase is gradual I haven't had issues with ramping up my distance. Usually I can add a couple of miles each week! I do find that the more miles I run, the faster I get! Even without doing speedwork you just adapt to running with better form and fitness. Here is a graph of weekly distance leading up to 2018 half and full marathons. I was about at my current level of distance, max 20 mile weeks, but in 11 weeks I did a 70 mile week! Now being 5 years older I'm not sure if I can progress that fast, but I'm sure I could get to 40 mile weeks fairly quickly! Despite getting in some high millage weeks I started late in training and my training base was smaller, so I was not so fast in the race. I think building more gradual for a much longer period would bring better results!
Note the purple bar before the marathon. I did a 17 mile run followed the next day by an 18 miler a week before the race. Usually I like to do one over twenty, but some say it's counterproductive doing training run that last over 3 hours.
Altair, I think your biggest bang for the buck, with least chance of getting injured, is the bolded statement above. I've run a few marathons and mileage (no matter the pace) is the best indicator of how well I'm gonna run the marathon. Not my interval paces or my tempo runs or hill work - mileage. I'd build that mileage steadily and most importantly slowly - starting now. I wouldn't bother with any speedwork other than some strides as someone already mentioned and maybe some informal fartlek stuff. From your HR's you mentioned you seem like you are already a low-heart-rate trainer, as am I. My max HR is ~165 (not calculated, but inferred from lots of races) and I try to run easy runs at 120 to 125. It seems ridiculously easy but I believe that's where I can increase my mileage. Just my 2cents, good luck!
kcam - Although I'm sure that mileage is the most important factor I think I'd need a huge amount to BQ without the benefits of some speedwork! I think the body accommodates to a certain pace and by running faster it gets used to the running form and energy requirements needed to be quick! But I do agree that speedwork could be counterproductive at this stage of training. Still, doing the two small intervals is an experiment I wish to continue to see if my pace improves.
My runs are in a low heartrate zone because my legs do not have the endurance to keep up a fast pace for long distances, or maybe I just enjoy the leisurely pace. As I think I mentioned, I estimate my max HR at 169 based on a Garmin reading a few years ago when running up a steep hill. But the accuracy of that device is suspect for momentary readings! The HR formula says 120 minus your age, which gives 149 in my case. But I get readings above that all the time.
As far as hill work goes, almost all my runs are done outside on the shoulders of the roads and flat courses are rare where I live, mostly I run up and down small hills. Here is last Saturday's run for example, which had a nice, gradual uphill slope.
DavePNW - From previous experience I know I can increase the weekly millage so I would be on the 40-45 range towards the end of winter or sooner. I get that hard speedwork might be too stressful until the body is prepared by running a lot of weekly miles, however I don't think the two quarter mile segments I run fast each week are super stressful, but will give consideration for holding off doing them. A survey I read of Boston qualifiers had most of them getting up to a 100 mile week! Not sure if I could do that, but I may benefit by doing more than 45. I also could add in more cross training - bike rides and walks.
Something like that will certainly not hurt you, but won't really help you either. If you want to add some speed during a mileage buildup, just to get your legs moving or to stave off boredom, I'd suggest to add one of these to an easy run:
1. As mentioned previously, ~10 strides - 100m fast, 200-300m recovery. No need to worry too much about pace or exact distance.
2. If you want to move up to the next level: ~10 x 1 min on/1 min off - alternate fast segments with slow recoveries
These are much lower stress than a full-fledged speed workout, which usually consists of 3+ miles of repeats.
Not sure what survey you were looking at, but all the people I know running 100 mile weeks are sub-3:00 types. I think 50-70 is more typical.
Dave
Are we there, yet?
A few thoughts to consider:
Yasso 800s were intended by Bart Yasso as a confirmation of HIS fitness. Amby Burfoot took that and made it into something Bart never intended. If you are going to run 800m intervals, you're better off using a running calculator to see what the recommended pace is as Yasso 800s are generally too slow for a good VO2Max workout.
In my opinion, the 16-18 weeks marathon training schedules are a detriment to running. They are more suited to the one an done crowd that wants to say they ran a marathon. Marathon success is more closely correlated to cumulative mile and average weekly mileage. Maintaining a higher average mpw so you don't need a drastic mileage buildup should lead to better results. I and my running partners had a great deal of success by maintaining our mileage year round with the main adjustment for marathon preparation being a modest increase in our long runs.
I know a lot of runners who BQed on far less than 100 mpw; 45-60 mpw seemed more the norm, though again that was maintained for most of the year, not just in a 4 month buildup.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
I looked at the survey that I thought said most Boston qualifiers ran a 100 mile week: BQ survey However, I can't find any reference that says that. It seems the weekly millage averages out in the 35 to 45 range. Perhaps I was confused by the statement that all had run over a 1000 miles in the year before the race.
The consensus is that my interval running at this point may be counter productive. As DavePNW suggests at most I should just do a series of much shorter segments if I want to do some speedwork, like 10x100m instead of the 2x400m I'm doing now. I think I should follow the advice I got here and mostly work on improving my weekly millage!
wcruner2 - So Yasso 800s are not the best VO2Max workout? Maybe I don't need them. If you go to the link in my first post you will see this: "Unfortunately, Yasso 800’s are a VO2 max workout – you run at max speed for 2-4 minutes and then take an equal amount of rest between intervals. Research demonstrates that an increase in VO2max does not increase fuel efficiency. Likewise, VO2 max intervals don’t specifically develop or improve your aerobic threshold. Therefore, a workout like Yasso 800’s during marathon training has limited benefit to your marathon specific fitness."
I totally agree that maintaining mileage throughout the year is the best plan! It takes a lot of effort to build up again after a slack period. Unfortunately sometimes my running gets sidetracked by other projects. Perhaps I can run more consistent now that I've retired, but still have major projects planned. I think if once I have build up distance and I can get in at least 4 months of 45 mile weeks, I'd be in pretty good shape for a marathon.
The consensus is that my interval running at this point may be counter productive. As DavePNW suggests at most I should just do a series of much shorter segments if I want to do some speedwork, like 10x100m instead of the 2x400m I'm doing now. I think I should follow the advice I got here and mostly work on improving my weekly millage! wcruner2 - So Yasso 800s are not the best VO2Max workout? Maybe I don't need them. If you go to the link in my first post you will see this: "Unfortunately, Yasso 800’s are a VO2 max workout – you run at max speed for 2-4 minutes and then take an equal amount of rest between intervals. Research demonstrates that an increase in VO2max does not increase fuel efficiency. Likewise, VO2 max intervals don’t specifically develop or improve your aerobic threshold. Therefore, a workout like Yasso 800’s during marathon training has limited benefit to your marathon specific fitness."
Well respected coaches such as Pfitzinger and Hanson would disagree with that consensus. That characterization of Yasso 800s in the article is also inaccurate. They are significantly slower than VO2 max speed and nowhere near actual max speed. While all races above the mile are highly aerobic, VO2Max and LT workouts are useful even at the ultra distances I race. Generally the higher one's VO2Max, the higher one's LT, which should lead to being able to race at a faster pace at the same percentage of one's LT which is a goal of training.
If you did decide to include VO2Max training, to get the most benefit you would need to run 3-5K at that pace, e.g. 4-6 x 800m or 8-12 x 400m.
I agree 100% with everything wcrunner2 says.
The only thing I will add is that marathon performance is mostly tied to aerobic capacity which is best improved through consistent high volume running. Volume can be either time or mileage based. But the key is keeping the training load at a point that will produce physiological adaptations that improve running efficiency. Basically, force the body to create more mitochondria and more capillaries. It take a long time for the body to do that.
However, if you are looking to improve VO2Max, you can typically do that with focused training over just a few weeks. So the best suggestion is to increase the base and maintain it (or ramp up for 2 week then step back for 1, repeat) for as long as you can. When you have a race on the calendar, carve our 2 weeks for some focused speedwork to help get you sharpened for race day.
To make it really simple, if you want to run a better marathon, RUN MORE.
be curious; not judgmental
wcrunner2 - So I take it that contrary to what other have said you think running intervals early in training is good preparation for a marathon? I read somewhere that short periods of high intensity are the best way to build running fitness, and the 80/20 plan has already been mentioned. However, there is something to be said for building up a base first with lots of miles at a slower speed. It gives the body time to adapt to the stresses of running, although I'm not sure which plan has less chances of injuries.
As for the Yasso 80s being slower than the VO2 max speed, I would think a variety of training paces would produce more adaptations, although current thought seems to say that moderate paced runs are "junk" miles.
Mr MattM - It was my understanding that cellular mitochondria fitness can improve or decrease rapidly. I don't know about capillaries. I found this article that supports your suggestion to use high volume running to boost mitochondria:
mitochondrial-adaptations-to-aerobic-trainingOn the other hand, research shows that short 30 second bursts of very high intensity are the best way to get peak mitochondria performance:
Maximize mitochondria I also saw several articles about how fasting can increase ADP, the energy molecule in the mitochondria.
I think it will take more than two weeks before the race for my pace to improve enough for a 4:15:00 marathon! Although I'm sure you meant that I should already be doing some speedwork in the previous months and just need to sharpen up before the race.
Yasso 800s are an ok workout but they have no predictive value for the marathon. As others have said, it's basically just mileage.
I had forgotton about Sean's BQ questionnaire. It's fun to go back and look at that after so many years. I think I was one of the first dozen or so interviews: https://miloandthecalf.com/2012/09/12/the-bqq-mike-g/
It holds up pretty well, I think.
Runners run
mikeymike - I read your interview! Impressive that you were able to BQ on your 2nd marathon with like 16 weeks of training! Also impressive that you have run a 2:49 marathon! I did not know about the 59 second rule, does that mean if I run a 4:20:59 I will be considered to be accepted as a participant in the race? I think if I can run a slow 12 miler followed by 12 at race pace the next day, that would be a good indicator of my readiness for the race. The Yasso 800s are just something else I'm considering as a confidence builder.
Thanks, the 16 weeks is somewhat misleading because like I said (and probably understated) I was very active and had good base fitness before I started "training".
The 59 second rule doesn't exist anymore--pretty sure they got rid of that a bunch of years ago. And the BQ times have come down by 10 minutes since I first qualified, at least for the younger age groups. Now a 30 year old needs to run a 3:00, which took me a couple more years to do after my first BQ. Lately there has often been a cutoff even faster than the BQ times most years since demand has outpaced the field size, although I think for 2023 there was no cutoff.
I think a good workout and confidence builder is to do some of your long runs as progression runs, where the first part is your easy run pace and the last part is at your marathon race pace. Like 18 with the first 10 easy and last 8 at MP.
Mr MattM - It was my understanding that cellular mitochondria fitness can improve or decrease rapidly. I don't know about capillaries. I found this article that supports your suggestion to use high volume running to boost mitochondria: mitochondrial-adaptations-to-aerobic-trainingOn the other hand, research shows that short 30 second bursts of very high intensity are the best way to get peak mitochondria performance: Maximize mitochondria I also saw several articles about how fasting can increase ADP, the energy molecule in the mitochondria. I think it will take more than two weeks before the race for my pace to improve enough for a 4:15:00 marathon! Although I'm sure you meant that I should already be doing some speedwork in the previous months and just need to sharpen up before the race.
My point was that consistent higher volume running will stimulate the body to produce more mitochondria (mitochondrial density). More mitochondria means a larger aerobic engine. More capillaries means oxygen getting into more cells more quickly. Higher intensity workouts certainly can (and do) increase overall aerobic performance, but the bigger the base, the more the total potential.
This is just my experience talking. Having been through both approaches, there is no comparison between what I experienced when my training was the standard build up with a percentage of workouts at higher intensity, versus when I focused almost exclusively on overall training volume. When I accustomed my body to run over 90 mpw, every week, my marathon times dropped like a stone and I could run multiple marathons with limited recovery. All that it required was allocating the time to run. I would run 2, sometimes 3 times per day. I rarely took a day off.
No one I know that has followed the RUN MORE approach to marathon training has ever come back and said 'yeah, that didn't work for me'. Get your body used to running higher mileage every week with only a small amount of speedwork and you'll see what I mean.
My point was that consistent higher volume running will stimulate the body to produce more mitochondria (mitochondrial density). More mitochondria means a larger aerobic engine. More capillaries means oxygen getting into more cells more quickly. Higher intensity workouts certainly can (and do) increase overall aerobic performance, but the bigger the base, the more the total potential. This is just my experience talking. Having been through both approaches, there is no comparison between what I experienced when my training was the standard build up with a percentage of workouts at higher intensity, versus when I focused almost exclusively on overall training volume. When I accustomed my body to run over 90 mpw, every week, my marathon times dropped like a stone and I could run multiple marathons with limited recovery. All that it required was allocating the time to run. I would run 2, sometimes 3 times per day. I rarely took a day off. No one I know that has followed the RUN MORE approach to marathon training has ever come back and said 'yeah, that didn't work for me'. Get your body used to running higher mileage every week with only a small amount of speedwork and you'll see what I mean.
LIKE
Maybe I didn't give it enough time, but when I tried to increase from 70 mpw to 90 mpw, it left me tired all the time. After a few months of that I dropped back to 70 mpw along with my steady diet of speed work. I should note that I've always been better at shorter distances, e.g. 800m to 10K.