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Goal of sub 19 minute 5k (Read 2820 times)
Jim24315
posted: 7/9/2008 at 5:53 PM
Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 7/9/2008 at 5:22 PM:
Agreed. While 20-minutes at T-pace is a good workout because it's roughly the duration of a 5k, it's a better workout for a 10k runner than a 5k runner.


And I agree with you. If I decide to focus exclusively on 5k I will need to add more intensity--not an awful lot but definitely more. If I haven't fallen apart by then I hope to do it next spring after the long race season that I'm starting to build up for now.

Off the top of my head I would say that you, Michigan, and Asics would beneifit a lot from doing plenty of threshold work and mileage. All 3 of you seem to have plenty of speed and just need to get strong enough to carry it. Michigan's log is looking better and Asics is really doing some nice mileage, but yours is still on the skimpy side. Are you battling injuries? You have a lot of uspside if you can ever get untracked
Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
Amy Barrow
Nurse
 posted: 7/9/2008 at 6:02 PM
Jim--why did you stop running in your 50s? How old are you now? I study age graded tables and know that I am running pretty high on the scale. I hope to get in the top three for 50-55 a/g in Running Times....I hope to continue to run good mileage and still stay injury free. I think that is key.
My goals for the year: State records for 1 mile, 5k, 10k, 4 mile, 10 mile, 8k, 15k, ½ marathon, graduate nursing school, pass NCLEX, get a job in critical care
RunAsics
Person of Interest
 posted: 7/9/2008 at 9:27 PM
modified: 7/9/2008 at 9:30 PM
Quote from Jim24315 on 7/9/2008 at 5:53 PM:
And I agree with you. If I decide to focus exclusively on 5k I will need to add more intensity--not an awful lot but definitely more. If I haven't fallen apart by then I hope to do it next spring after the long race season that I'm starting to build up for now.

Off the top of my head I would say that you, Michigan, and Asics would beneifit a lot from doing plenty of threshold work and mileage. All 3 of you seem to have plenty of speed and just need to get strong enough to carry it. Michigan's log is looking better and Asics is really doing some nice mileage, but yours is still on the skimpy side. Are you battling injuries? You have a lot of uspside if you can ever get untracked



I used to run a weekly tempo, which really helped my HM performance. After my Feb HM things changed due to shift in training focus and mileage from prior years. My tempos are coming back as part of my marathon training. Even though I'm not training for 5ks, it's tough to drop my weekly track session as it's a lot of fun. Pfitzinger warns of this very thing...

My tempos are now within 9 to 10 mile runs. Yesterday was 4 at t-pace within a 9 mile run. It's a good workout. I base all my paces of the McMillan running calculator using my 10 M PR, which happily lines up with my 5k, 8k and 5M PRs.

Funny, I started running at 32 as well. Seems to be the magic age...
"Only a few more laps to go and then the action will begin, unless this is the action, which it is."

5k PR: 18:15 (06/08); 8k PR: 30:19 (03/08); 5M PR: 30:27 (06/08); 10k PR: 37:58 (10/08); 15k PR: 57:34 (11/08); 10M PR: 1:04:18 (05/08); HM PR: 1:28.03 (02/08); M PR: 3:11.51 (11/08)
jEfFgObLuE
Frustrating Project
 posted: 7/9/2008 at 9:38 PM
modified: 7/9/2008 at 9:38 PM
Quote from Jim24315 on 7/9/2008 at 5:53 PM:
Off the top of my head I would say that you, Michigan, and Asics would beneifit a lot from doing plenty of threshold work and mileage. All 3 of you seem to have plenty of speed and just need to get strong enough to carry it. Michigan's log is looking better and Asics is really doing some nice mileage, but yours is still on the skimpy side. Are you battling injuries? You have a lot of uspside if you can ever get untracked


Thanks for the kind and accurate words. No injuries, but just a lot of real-life complications that are making it hard for me to fit in the kind of mileage that I would like to do. Having once-upon-a-time run in the 16's a few times, and the 17's a few more, I would love to get back down there. I believe it's possible a year from now, but I really need to get solidly into the 40's and 50's per week to make it happen.
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20
25k: 1:35:59

21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00

"Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth."
Steve Allen

Oswald acted alone.
Jim24315
posted: 7/9/2008 at 10:47 PM

Amy,

When I reached my peak at 43 I started racing almost every weekend, chasing the high of the next PR. I ran 50 of them that year and 40 more each of the next 2 years. Eventually I started to burn out (surprise). Mileage started tailing off and so did my times--there were other things but that’s another story. By 51 I was under 20mpw and 15-20 lbs heavier. By 52 I was hardly running at all. However, I never actually stopped completely but for 6 years I was lucky to average 10 mpw and never raced. Then one day while shooting baskets I realized that something was missing. This is my 4th year back. I’m 62 now.

That’s an amazing story you have.It is incredible that you have come back like this after having a hip replaced. There are a couple guys from my club who have had it done and not returned to where they were before. There’s also a guy who just moved in next door about a month ago. I got to talking to him and found out that he had run sub-9 for 2 miles in college and was a pretty good masters runner too. He stopped running because of hip replacement and is my age. I will tell him about you. Maybe it will inspire him. He seems to be moving around pretty well—I didn’t notice any limping.

I saw that issue in Running Times. Based on the 5k you ran on the 4th you should have a shot at top 3 this year, especially in the likely case that you bring your time down some more. I wouldn’t think that July in Tennessee is exactly PR weather. I have an outside shot at honorable mention this year, but no chance at all for anything higher. I have a few wins over a couple guys who made it last year but I have missed 3 USATF events already.

“hope to continue to run good mileage and still stay injury free. I think that is key.”

I’m sure you will have lots of people pulling for you. I think those are the keys for rest of us as well. This has the makings of a very interesting thread.
Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
JDF
Non-Stroller-Still Crazy
 posted: 7/10/2008 at 5:43 PM
Jim,

I don’t think breaking the 19:00 mark is as difficult as you made it sound. From my experience I found it much easier to break 19:00 than it was to break 20:00. When I was trying to break 20:00 I had to increase my mileage dramatically. I went from 3 mpw to about 15 mpw. When I broke 19:00 my mileage was still about 15 mpw. What’s funny is that when I hit ~50 mpw all I could muster was a 19:10 on an easy course.

Here was my progression towards my current PR of 18:27.

2006 September 20:26
2006 October 19:42
2006 October 19:17
2007 September 19:40
2007 October 18:42
2007 October 18:27

I really think that breaking 20:00 is just all in your head. The 19:00 mark is about having decent training and running the right race. Now breaking 18:00 is a whole different story. That takes some more serious training and excellent pacing. I have never got the pacing thing right so I guess that is why I have never broken 18:00. I am working on that though. Maybe this will be my breakthrough year?

Oh yea, Amy you are nuts! Those are some awesome times you are posting. Keep it up!

So Mich, when do we get to start the sub 19:00 watch for you? I have don’t have anything to look forward to since you broke 20:00 and there are no races in NC during the summer(116 degrees and 100% humidity is not fun)! Wouldn’t be cool if Mich does a 1 and done with the 19’s? I bet he could hit 18:59 in his next race if everything is perfect!
http://runningahead.com/profiles/69d214e40d824ad0b0a73c925d655a13
RunAsics
Person of Interest
 posted: 7/10/2008 at 6:16 PM
modified: 7/10/2008 at 6:24 PM
My progression from 2007 to date with miles per week and 5k race times:

2007:

Jan - 20
Feb - 15
Mar - 15
Apr - 16 5k - 19:39
May - 21
Jun - 21
Jul - 31 5k - 19:24
Aug - 26
Sep - 16
Oct - 26 5k - 19:12 & 18:52
Nov - 32 5k - 18:51
Dec - 35

2008:

Jan - 40
Feb - 30
Mar - 37 5k - 19:22
Apr - 37 5k - 18:21
May - 41 5k - 18:27, 18:59
Jun - 48 5k - 18:15
Jul - 62 (plan) 5k - 18:25

Through 2007 I would run put in a tempo run and/or an interval session, both on the treadmill, per week. Tempo 4 to 6 miles @ 6:39 mpm pace and intervals (400s & some 800s) at 1:26 to 1:30.
"Only a few more laps to go and then the action will begin, unless this is the action, which it is."

5k PR: 18:15 (06/08); 8k PR: 30:19 (03/08); 5M PR: 30:27 (06/08); 10k PR: 37:58 (10/08); 15k PR: 57:34 (11/08); 10M PR: 1:04:18 (05/08); HM PR: 1:28.03 (02/08); M PR: 3:11.51 (11/08)
JDF
Non-Stroller-Still Crazy
 posted: 7/10/2008 at 6:42 PM
Quote from Amy Barrow on 7/9/2008 at 6:02 PM:
Jim--why did you stop running in your 50s? How old are you now? I study age graded tables and know that I am running pretty high on the scale. I hope to get in the top three for 50-55 a/g in Running Times....I hope to continue to run good mileage and still stay injury free. I think that is key.


At 50 you are getting your degree and going for several state records! Yes, you are definitely one of my idols!
http://runningahead.com/profiles/69d214e40d824ad0b0a73c925d655a13
Jim24315
posted: 7/10/2008 at 8:08 PM
modified: 7/10/2008 at 8:09 PM
Quote from JDF on 7/10/2008 at 5:43 PM:
Jim,

I don’t think breaking the 19:00 mark is as difficult as you made it sound. From my experience I found it much easier to break 19:00 than it was to break 20:00. When I was trying to break 20:00 I had to increase my mileage dramatically. I went from 3 mpw to about 15 mpw. When I broke 19:00 my mileage was still about 15 mpw. What’s funny is that when I hit ~50 mpw all I could muster was a 19:10 on an easy course.



Travis,
I think you overlooking what I said here:

"If you have run 19:30-19:50 off sporadic training and are a bit overweight, it is possible to go sub-19 with 2 or 3 months of dedicated training. However, if you are already at a good weight and have been doing solid training for a while, it is LONG way from > 19:30 to sub-19."

I should have said "and/or are a big overweight" but the point I was trying to make was this---and I'll try to do it by giving examples:

Lets say Runner "A" has been putting in 50 mpw that have included a sound workout schedule for 4 years. Recently he ran a new PR of 19:40

Runner "B" has been runnning a couple years. His training has been up and down. Anything over 100 miles a week in a month would be good for him. He ran 19:45 in the same race as Runner A. It was a 15-second PR for him.

I would say that Runner B is going to have a much easier time breaking 19 minutes than will Runner "A". He has come within 5 seconds of "A" off of lackluster training. With a little more work he should be able to beat "A" easily. On the other hand, Runner "A" has been working pretty hard for 4 years now and it's taken hime this long to reach 19:40. Although he can still can continue to improve, the law of diminishing returns is already affecting him a lot more than Runner B.

When I posted my 5k progression over these last few years you can see that same law in effect. The length of time it takes to go from 19:30 to 18:59 can vary greatly from one runner to another.





Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
Jim24315
posted: 7/10/2008 at 8:09 PM
modified: 7/10/2008 at 8:26 PM
"Jim,

I don’t think breaking the 19:00 mark is as difficult as you made it sound. From my experience I found it much easier to break 19:00 than it was to break 20:00. When I was trying to break 20:00 I had to increase my mileage dramatically. I went from 3 mpw to about 15 mpw. When I broke 19:00 my mileage was still about 15 mpw. What’s funny is that when I hit ~50 mpw all I could muster was a 19:10 on an easy course."
"
Travis, I think you overlooking what I said here:

"If you have run 19:30-19:50 off sporadic training and are a bit overweight, it is possible to go sub-19 with 2 or 3 months of dedicated training. However, if you are already at a good weight and have been doing solid training for a while, it is LONG way from > 19:30 to sub-19."

I should have said "and/or are a bit overweight" but the point I was trying to make was this---and I'll try to do it by giving examples:

Lets say Runner "A" has been putting in 50 mpw that have included a sound workout schedule for 4 years. Recently he ran a new PR of 19:40

Runner "B" has been runnning a couple years. His training has been up and down. Anything over 100 miles a week in a month would be good for him. He ran 19:45 in the same race as Runner A. It was a 15-second PR for him.

I would say that Runner B is going to have a much easier time breaking 19 minutes than will Runner "A". He has come within 5 seconds of "A" off of lackluster training. With a little more work he should be able to beat "A" easily. On the other hand, Runner "A" has been working pretty hard for 4 years now and it's taken hime this long to reach 19:40. Although he can still can continue to improve, the law of diminishing returns is already affecting him a lot more than Runner B.

When I posted my 5k progression over these last few years you can see that same law in effect. The length of time it takes to go from 19:30 to 18:59 can vary greatly from one runner to another
Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
JDF
Non-Stroller-Still Crazy
 posted: 7/10/2008 at 9:10 PM
Quote from Jim24315 on 7/10/2008 at 8:08 PM:

When I posted my 5k progression over these last few years you can see that same law in effect. The length of time it takes to go from 19:30 to 18:59 can vary greatly from one runner to another.


Yea, I see what you are saying. However, I feel that breaking the 20:00 mark just requires a lot of determination and a little training. Breaking the 19:00 mark requires the same determination and just a little more training. However, I believe(I have not done this yet so I wouldn’t know) that breaking 18:00 requires either a lot of training or a heck of a lot of determination or both.

I believe that anyone capable of running a 20:59 can run a 19:59 with just a little more training and the right motivation. I also think that someone who can run a 19:30 can run the 18:59 with some more motivation and a little more training. However, I think the only thing that will really improve your times past the 18:59 mark is proper training, proper pacing, and more motivation.
http://runningahead.com/profiles/69d214e40d824ad0b0a73c925d655a13
norrin_radd
posted: 7/11/2008 at 6:44 AM
Hey folks, Some of you may recognize me from the old coolrunning boards. I mainly posted in the sub-20 5k and sub-40 10k threads since they were my goals at the time. I had the pleasure of breaking through the sub-40 10k in the same race as Jim last August. A week after that I moved house and jobs from northern CA to southern CA. And you know how it is with new jobs..... I finally got to put my head above water again.

But amongst all that I have kept running, slightly upping my mileage this year (45-50 mpw) and moving on to new goals (next goal is a sub-60 15k - I have a shot in about 10 days). Some good advice in this thread already but a couple more pieces I would add:

Creating goals is great but I feel it can also create artificial barriers. By the end of last year I had done 19.30 in a 5k race in less than ideal conditions and 19.10 in a solo time trial on the track. I didn't feel 19.00 was a target that was too far away and so aimed at breaking a 6-minute pace (sub 18.39) instead. The outcome of this? In a summer series of 5k races here I put down times of 18.41, 18.45, 18.44, and 18.46 before finally breaking through with an 18.29. In the three races since then I've got under 18.39 twice. There's no 'barrier' at 18.39 - it's just as arbitrary a time as 19.00. In creating one artificial barrier (18.39) I had skipped over another (19.00). I'm not sure this is a trick you can play on yourself without the necessary training (should my next goal be sub-16??) but I suspect that if my goal had been to go sub-19 my times would have been 19.01, 19.03, 19.02 etc !

If you have an opportunity then putting in a good time on an aided course is a great confidence boost. Earlier this year I did a downhill 5k here (I think it's about 150' total elevation drop). I didn't consider the time (18.41) to be a 'real' time (it's probably equivalent to about 19.00 or so) but there's no doubt it helped my confidence and is one of the reasons I concentrated on the sub-18.39 goal rather than the sub-19 goal.

Final bit of advice that helped me a lot but almost injured me is to run hill intervals BOTH up and downhill - concentrating on power going up, jogging a short recovery and then concentrating on speed and form coming down, jog a short recovery and then repeat. The downhill intervals really helped me get used to a faster pace for the 5k and the uphill intervals give you the strength to maintain the pace. But you have to find a better surface than pavement - I came very close to doing something nasty to my hip but just got away with it. If I can find a good grass slope I'd definitely do this again. I did 400m intervals up a hill that probably gained about 30' over the 400m, 400m recovery jog and 400m down the same hill. Repeat the set 8 times concentrating on consistent times. I was really doing this as training for a mile race here but I feel it has helped my 5k times too (especially since the regular weekly 5k course goes uphill about 100' then turns around and comes back down the hill).
PR's 1 mile 4:58 (downhill!), 5k - 18:20, 10k - 39:39, 15k - 1:01:38, 1/2m 1:25:41
Goals sub-18 5k, sub-60 15k, sub- 1:25 1/2m, sub-3 marathon
MichiganFlyer
posted: 7/11/2008 at 12:12 PM
modified: 7/11/2008 at 12:13 PM
Quote from JDF on 7/10/2008 at 9:10 PM:
Yea, I see what you are saying. However, I feel that breaking the 20:00 mark just requires a lot of determination and a little training. Breaking the 19:00 mark requires the same determination and just a little more training. However, I believe(I have not done this yet so I wouldn’t know) that breaking 18:00 requires either a lot of training or a heck of a lot of determination or both.

I believe that anyone capable of running a 20:59 can run a 19:59 with just a little more training and the right motivation. I also think that someone who can run a 19:30 can run the 18:59 with some more motivation and a little more training. However, I think the only thing that will really improve your times past the 18:59 mark is proper training, proper pacing, and more motivation.


JDF...I still don't think you realize that you were born with quite a bit of running talent. I myself probably was born with more running talent than the average person since breaking 21 was similar to me as your breaking 20...it didnt take too much training..maybe 2-3 months and a little motivation. But my 20 minute goal seems similar to your 19 minute goal...it took a bit more work. And my 19 goal is like your 18 goal...seems ominous.

Jim said 19 would be alot harder than 19:30. I know it will be hard but I took 14 seconds off my PR in May and another 27 seconds off my PR in June. So it could be that all the training I have been doing is starting to pay off. Probably it was just a good course though. Sub 19 is mental just like sub 20....but one also cannot run sub 19 unless one is in shape to do so.
Roth Runner
posted: 7/11/2008 at 1:00 PM
Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/11/2008 at 12:12 PM:
So it could be that all the training I have been doing is starting to pay off. Probably it was just a good course though.


Give yourself some credit Michigan, it was the training that got you the sub 20 and by a good margin. If it's a fast course, then hey it's a fast course - most people's PR's after a while are on fast courses, but it didn't magic you under 20 last year!

I agree with Jim that getting sub 19 is probably gonna take some more effort, but hey if you want it like you wanted sub 20 you'll get there sooner or later!
Goals for 2009:
Sub 1:20 half marathon
Sub 3:00 marathon
Sub 5 minute mile
mikeymike
posted: 7/11/2008 at 1:16 PM
modified: 7/11/2008 at 1:17 PM
MichiganFlyer,

My unsolicited two cents:

1.) You can't sustain a peak for very long. You said it yourself you took 14 seconds out of your PR in May and another 27 seconds in June. Sounds like a peak to me. I would back off the workouts, amp the easy mileage and run base until fall. Then put in 6-8 weeks of workouts and CRUSH 19 in October or November.

2.) Your comments to JDF abut talent are misguided. Someone for whom 56 miles represents a big week has no idea how much talent he or anyone else has. Don't impose artificial limits on your potential.

All in all though I enjoy following this (and the 20 minute) thread. It's motivating.

Cheers


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