RunningAHEAD - Topic: Goal of sub 19 minute 5k

Goal of sub 19 minute 5k (Read 2820 times)

jEfFgObLuE view log Frustrating Project	posted: 7/22/2008 at 2:37 PM modified: 7/22/2008 at 2:38 PM
	Quote from Tchuck on 7/22/2008 at 2:15 PM: I question that how much further physiological benefit you get from increasing hard tempo work from 20 min to 33-35 min other than beating on the body and slowing recovery. According to Daniel's, no further benefit is gained by going more than 20 min. at hard tempo pace. Tinman and more recently Daniel's has advocated that as the length/time of tempo running goes higher, the pace should be slower and the physiological effect is the same. Quote from RunAsics on 7/22/2008 at 2:25 PM: That's what's great about McMillan - he gives you a pace RANGE. Dudes, did anyone read my post above? (Apparently not.) This is exactly what I put up above (Tempo paces for tempo runs longer than 20 minutes -- specifically based on MichiganFlyer's 5k time). Here is is again: Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 7/21/2008 at 7:45 PM: Daniels would advise the following tempo run paces (based on your 19:36 5k) MTA: predicts a 5-miler of 32:19, which is 6:28 pace. 20 minutes: 6:44 (this is a classic tempo run at threshold pace) 25 min: 6:49 30 min: 6:53 35 min: 6:56 <-- This is right around 5 miles 40 min: 6:58 45 min: 7:00 50 min: 7:02 55 min: 7:04 60 min: 7:06 (based on p. 114 of Daniels' Running Formula, 2nd Edition)
	20th Century: 800m: 2:04 \|1600m: 4:37 \|3200m: 10:06 \|5k: 16:23 \|10k: 35:38 \|15k: 54:20 25k: 1:35:59 21st Century: 5k: 19:42 \|10k: 43:00 "Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth." Steve Allen Oswald acted alone.

MichiganFlyer

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posted: 7/22/2008 at 3:19 PM
modified: 7/22/2008 at 3:20 PM

I am listening to this tempo argument.

But my PR was 19:36 and my 2nd best 5k time was 20:03.
I think if I ran a 5k all out today I would finish in around 20:15.
I guess I am underconfident but some more sub 20s on low mileage will change that.
The tempo pace has to be adjusted to what you can run that day.

The time to shoot for is nice but is rare for me to hit those times.
I think 4-5 miles at 7 minute pace or a few seconds over is fine.
I probably could hit sub 7 pace if I did enough warmup (I did 1/2 mile warmup for the 5 mile tempo)
I certainly would not do a tempo run of 6 miles yet.

jEfFgObLuE view log Frustrating Project	posted: 7/22/2008 at 3:47 PM modified: 7/22/2008 at 3:47 PM
	Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/22/2008 at 3:19 PM: I am listening to this tempo argument. But my PR was 19:36 and my 2nd best 5k time was 20:03. I think if I ran a 5k all out today I would finish in around 20:15. I guess I am underconfident but some more sub 20s on low mileage will change that. The tempo pace has to be adjusted to what you can run that day. The time to shoot for is nice but is rare for me to hit those times. I think 4-5 miles at 7 minute pace or a few seconds over is fine. I probably could hit sub 7 pace if I did enough warmup (I did 1/2 mile warmup for the 5 mile tempo) I certainly would not do a tempo run of 6 miles yet. I agree. I posted the numbers mainly in response to the point where you thought that a pace was too fast (6:47 for 5 miles or something like that) -- these numbers are slower than that. But your point is exactly right -- you gotta do what you can do on a given day. Personally, I'd just stick to the 20 min tempos until you can do those with a degree of consistency and confidence. Just my opinion.
	20th Century: 800m: 2:04 \|1600m: 4:37 \|3200m: 10:06 \|5k: 16:23 \|10k: 35:38 \|15k: 54:20 25k: 1:35:59 21st Century: 5k: 19:42 \|10k: 43:00 "Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth." Steve Allen Oswald acted alone.

MichiganFlyer

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posted: 7/22/2008 at 7:29 PM

Thinking about it more out loud.

Tempo runs are set to the pace you are running 5k races at....but in 5k races I have a field of hundreds of runners and the adrenaline is there. I am pacing off runners and trying to beat them as well.

In a tempo run I have none of that. If I had pacers for my tempo runs I think I could go 10 seconds pre mile faster. As I have heard you should run your tempo at a pace based on what you can run a 5k in the weather conditions....but should I also base it on how fast I could run a 5k alone since I am running the tempo alone?

Jim24315 view log	posted: 7/22/2008 at 7:34 PM
	Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/22/2008 at 7:29 PM: Thinking about it more out loud. Tempo runs are set to the pace you are running 5k races at....but in 5k races I have a field of hundreds of runners and the adrenaline is there. I am pacing off runners and trying to beat them as well. In a tempo run I have none of that. If I had pacers for my tempo runs I think I could go 10 seconds pre mile faster. As I have heard you should run your tempo at a pace based on what you can run a 5k in the weather conditions....but should I also base it on how fast I could run a 5k alone since I am running the tempo alone? much too fast for a tempo run -- what would be the point? Who can run at tempo at 5k race pace? Not me, that's for sure--no way could I even run a time trail that fast.
	Masters PR's: 40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12 50's - couch potato 60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33

jEfFgObLuE view log Frustrating Project	posted: 7/22/2008 at 7:39 PM modified: 7/22/2008 at 7:45 PM
	Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/22/2008 at 7:29 PM: Tempo runs are set to the pace you are running 5k races at Incorrect. Technically speaking, a tempo run is a 20 minute continuous run done at lactate threshold pace, which is roughly 10~15 seconds per mile slower than your 10k pace. Based on you 19:36 5k, from Daniels we get: 5k pace: 6:19 10k pace: 6:32 T-pace: 6:44 But let's not overthink this. A tempo run is comfortably hard. Slow enough so that you feel like you could do it for 40~50 minutes, but fast enough that you're glad you don't have to run for that long. BTW, I think longer slower tempo runs (>20 minutes) are of dubious benefit for a 5k, since they are run at paces slower than 10k pace. Great for 15k and up, and good for 10k's as well, but I don't see how 25~60 minutes runs slower than LT are gonna do much for 5k racing. Like I said, if I were you I'd stick to the 20 minute temppo runs, or maybe repeats at T-pace with one minute breaks (Daniels likes 5x1 mile at T-pace with 1:00 recovery). Gets you more running at threshold, but not too much stress -- and more benefit than the running 30~35 minutes slower T-pace.
	20th Century: 800m: 2:04 \|1600m: 4:37 \|3200m: 10:06 \|5k: 16:23 \|10k: 35:38 \|15k: 54:20 25k: 1:35:59 21st Century: 5k: 19:42 \|10k: 43:00 "Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth." Steve Allen Oswald acted alone.

mikeymike

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posted: 7/22/2008 at 10:05 PM

Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 7/22/2008 at 7:39 PM:

BTW, I think longer slower tempo runs (>20 minutes) are of dubious benefit for a 5k, since they are run at paces slower than 10k pace. Great for 15k and up, and good for 10k's as well, but I don't see how 25~60 minutes runs slower than LT are gonna do much for 5k racing.

Do you also not see how lots of slow mileage could do much for 5k racing? I disagree. I think long tempos are better all around than short tempos, almost regardless of distance. I hardly ever do 20-minute tempos. I usually alternate cruise intervals (like 5 x mile, 3 x 2 mile) or longish (30-40 minute) tempos.

jEfFgObLuE view log Frustrating Project	posted: 7/22/2008 at 10:16 PM
	Quote from mikeymike on 7/22/2008 at 10:05 PM: Do you also not see how lots of slow mileage could do much for 5k racing? No, I get it. Aerobic development is the cake. Speed work is the frosting. Need the cake before you can frost it. I'm going with my own experience of running my best 5ks on mostly short tempos, and VO2max work, as opposed to long tempos. Just me. Perhaps I would have been faster had I run more longish tempos. Who knows. I do know that the relatively large gap in pace in between my 5k and 10k PR pace (28sec/mile, about twice what it should be) indicates that long tempos certainly would've helped my 10k, so I definitely will give you that.
	20th Century: 800m: 2:04 \|1600m: 4:37 \|3200m: 10:06 \|5k: 16:23 \|10k: 35:38 \|15k: 54:20 25k: 1:35:59 21st Century: 5k: 19:42 \|10k: 43:00 "Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth." Steve Allen Oswald acted alone.

mikeymike

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posted: 7/22/2008 at 10:27 PM

Although I am so not a marathoner, my training has been more geared toward the longer stuff especially the last 5 years or so. And a funny thing happened. I got faster at 5k. The training we hobbyists are doing is never ideal but I think the reason most of us run our best 5Ks and 10Ks off of marathon training is that when we do marathon training we get closer to ideal 5K training.

Aside from a few workouts over the last few weeks I'm convinced that for most recreational racers, 5K training and marathon training should be basically identical.

Jeff view log	posted: 7/22/2008 at 10:53 PM
	Quote from mikeymike on 7/22/2008 at 10:27 PM: Aside from a few workouts over the last few weeks I'm convinced that for most recreational racers, 5K training and marathon training should be basically identical. I agree with this 100%, but it should be mentioned that proper marathon training is not just running long and easy but includes a lot of variation in pace, strides, tempos, hills, etc.
	a vagabond,..highway-beater; a rolling stone, one that does nought but runne here and there. ~Cotgrave, Randle A dictionarie of the French and English tongues, 1611

MichiganFlyer

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posted: 7/22/2008 at 11:00 PM
modified: 7/22/2008 at 11:00 PM

Tempo runs are set to the pace you are running 5k races at....

Quote from Jim24315 on 7/22/2008 at 7:34 PM:

much too fast for a tempo run -- what would be the point? Who can run at tempo at 5k race pace? Not me, that's for sure--no way could I even run a time trail that fast.

I guess that sounded wrong. I chose my words poorly...what I meant to say was My proposed tempo pace is based upon my 5k race pace...for example if I run a 5k at 6:20 pace I would run my tempo at about 30 seconds per mile slower than that or 6:50 pace....but I cannot run a 6:20 pace 5k anyday...I need good cool weather and also some pacers...thus my question was should I run 30 seconds per mile slower than the pace I could run a 5k race on that given day...I believe my tempo pace should be set based on what I could run today if I was in an actual 5k race....Not based upon what I could run on a 5k time trial all alone because that would be much slower.

Jeff view log	posted: 7/22/2008 at 11:07 PM modified: 7/22/2008 at 11:08 PM
	Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/22/2008 at 11:00 PM: I believe my tempo pace should be set based on what I could run today if I was in an actual 5k race. You don't know the pace you should run until you are finished with the run. Recipe for a 20 minute tempo run: 1. Start out faster than your easy day pace, at a pace that you feel you can conservatively manage to hold strongly for 20 minutes. 2. 10 minutes in, if you're feeling comfortable but not fast or hard, pick it up a bit. If you're feeling like you're going to have to struggle to make it, then back off a bit. 3. When you're finished with your run, calculate your pace by dividing the total time by the distance. That's the pace you should have run on that day. It really is that simple. If you want a mikeymike 40 minute tempo, then do it for 40 minutes at a manageable pace.
	a vagabond,..highway-beater; a rolling stone, one that does nought but runne here and there. ~Cotgrave, Randle A dictionarie of the French and English tongues, 1611

mikeymike view log	posted: 7/22/2008 at 11:41 PM
	Quote from Jeff on 7/22/2008 at 10:53 PM: I agree with this 100%, but it should be mentioned that proper marathon training is not just running long and easy but includes a lot of variation in pace, strides, tempos, hills, etc. Indeed.

pRED view log	posted: 7/22/2008 at 11:53 PM
	Quote from mikeymike on 7/22/2008 at 10:27 PM: "I'm convinced that for most recreational racers, 5K training and marathon training should be basically identical". Ah..ha!! So burning the candle at both ends...is O.K.?
	Ricky 2008 Goals: ~~sub-18~~ 5k 17:50 \| ~~sub-39~~ 10k 38:35 \| sub-3 M Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T.S. Eliot You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you might just find; you get what you need.

mikeymike view log	posted: 7/23/2008 at 12:03 AM
	A pRED sighting!! Ha. Yeah I guess so, in doses.

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