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Goal of sub 19 minute 5k (Read 2820 times)
Scout7
CPT Curmudgeon
 posted: 7/23/2008 at 3:41 PM
I tend to question the absolutes of using pace or HR. By putting things into a formula, you take out the responsibility of the runner for being aware of the training.

As a runner, it's entirely too easy to abdicate my training to someone or something else. "I should run at this pace, because this person said it was the best way to see improvement." Hogwash and poppycock. What does that person know about, the individual? What does your watch or HRM know that your body doesn't? Nothing at all.

Somewhat hard is a appropriately vague, because the term "tempo run" is vague as well. What is it? There's no real definition. All of them hint at something, and that something is that the effort should be harder than what you run on an easy day. But what level of effort? No one can answer this. Should it be marathon effort? 10K effort? HM effort? Some percentage of how many times my heart beats? There's no one right answer, yet we try to find that one magic piece. It doesn't exist. It depends on the person, his goals, his fitness, his desire and how he feels that day. Giving pace ranges from a book is as arbitrary as using a formula to determine what your heart rate should be for a given training adaptation.
Amat victoria curam.

Sine labore nihil.

Dulcius ex asperis.
jEfFgObLuE
Frustrating Project
 posted: 7/23/2008 at 3:47 PM
Quote from Scout7 on 7/23/2008 at 3:41 PM:
I tend to question the absolutes of using pace or HR. By putting things into a formula, you take out the responsibility of the runner for being aware of the training.


The main problem of speed training by HR is that HR varies so much as a function of temperature, fatigue, overtraining, hydration, etc. I still consider it useful as for helping me keep my easy runs easy -- unchecked, I tend to run too fast on easy days, despite the fact that I know much better.
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20
25k: 1:35:59

21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00

"Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth."
Steve Allen

Oswald acted alone.
pRED
posted: 7/23/2008 at 9:12 PM
Quote from Scout7 on 7/23/2008 at 3:41 PM:
I tend to question the absolutes of using pace or HR. By putting things into a formula, you take out the responsibility of the runner for being aware of the training.

As a runner, it's entirely too easy to abdicate my training to someone or something else. "I should run at this pace, because this person said it was the best way to see improvement." Hogwash and poppycock. What does that person know about, the individual? What does your watch or HRM know that your body doesn't? Nothing at all.

Somewhat hard is a appropriately vague, because the term "tempo run" is vague as well. What is it? There's no real definition. All of them hint at something, and that something is that the effort should be harder than what you run on an easy day. But what level of effort? No one can answer this. Should it be marathon effort? 10K effort? HM effort? Some percentage of how many times my heart beats? There's no one right answer, yet we try to find that one magic piece. It doesn't exist. It depends on the person, his goals, his fitness, his desire and how he feels that day. Giving pace ranges from a book is as arbitrary as using a formula to determine what your heart rate should be for a given training adaptation.


I spent several minutes looking up the word to describe the way I feel about you dude and your attitude.
You know it all and agree with nothing.

Anyway, when I found the word and the correct spelling,
low and behold, you had already proclaimed yourself (in your title) to be a "CURMUDGEON".
How appropriate!

You sir are the one that's vague and full of "hogwash and poppycock".

You tend NOT to question the absolutes of anything, but rather debunk any and everything.
Ricky
2008 Goals: sub-18 5k 17:50 | sub-39 10k 38:35 | sub-3 M

Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T.S. Eliot

You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you might just find; you get what you need.
MichiganFlyer
posted: 7/24/2008 at 11:36 AM
I agree with PRed to an extent.

Scout is saying that Jack Daniels, Tinman, Greg McMillan and other great coaches are full of hogwash.
Tchuck
posted: 7/24/2008 at 12:00 PM
modified: 7/24/2008 at 12:01 PM
I understand what Scout is trying to say but one has to look not only at experienced runners but also the beginners and intermediates that may require guidance, paces, HRs etc as they don't have a clue on how each run should feel. But at same time the more experienced person also needs some guidance to get to next level. I do agree having a coach "in person" is very valuable but these great coaches know quite a bit and can structure a program for optimized results.
Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!
Scout7
CPT Curmudgeon
 posted: 7/24/2008 at 12:03 PM
Of course I'm being vague. I even said I was. In this instance especially, because I believe that you can't be exact on this subject. What constitutes a tempo run? Even with exact definitions, there has been confusion over it. So I'm not the only one being vague.

Do I believe that most of the people here are making this entirely too difficult? Hell yes. Why? Because it's not about one workout, or even one type of workout. There are so many different ways to skin a cat, and each cat is different.

I have no problem with any of the coaches mentioned (although I don't know anything about Tinman). I think that when you get past the terminology used by each one, you get to the basic heart of the matter:

Run as much as you can. Some of it hard, most of it easy. All of them, every single one.

That's it, there's no secret. There's no magic pace or effort level of running a tempo that's going to make you reach your goal.

People have been debating how to run a tempo run for years. And there are so many competing definitions out there that the debate has become ridiculous. If I offer up my own definition of it, is that horrible? My name may not be Daniels, but my definition is no less valid.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in handing someone a script to blindly follow. It's just not that easy. You call it being vague, and it is. Because no one here knows you better than you.
Amat victoria curam.

Sine labore nihil.

Dulcius ex asperis.
mikeymike
posted: 7/24/2008 at 12:05 PM
Many, many great coaches do not sweat the science and numbers at all and have gotten as good or better results from their athletes than any of those mentioned.

And one of my favorite quotes ever on RA was from obsessor who said, using a HRM or GPS to learn proper pacing is like giving a monkey crack to teach it self control. I like that one.

But I agree that Scout is a crumudgeon. Duh.
MrPHinNJ
Potato Grower
 posted: 7/24/2008 at 12:33 PM
I initially monitored pace for the purpose of seeing what a certain pace felt like. It took me a little time but I now have a good idea of how different workouts should feel. So now my garmin is used just so I can log my runs. There are too many things that can mess with your pace, change in fitness, weather, or maybe one is a little more curmudgeonly that day. But if you have the feel down then easy is still easy, tempo is still tempo, etc.

Terminology aside, as long as you know how you want the run to feel, then just try to hit that feeling and don't worry about anything else.
The glass is half full.
Scout7
CPT Curmudgeon
 posted: 7/24/2008 at 12:37 PM
Quote from MrPHinNJ on 7/24/2008 at 12:33 PM:
Terminology aside, as long as you know how you want the run to feel, then just try to hit that feeling and don't worry about anything else.


Exactly.
Amat victoria curam.

Sine labore nihil.

Dulcius ex asperis.
MichiganFlyer
posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:17 PM
modified: 7/24/2008 at 2:18 PM
I credit hills with helping me break my PR. I ran 4 days of very steep hills the week before before breaking my 5k PR by 27 seconds.

Sure I ran alot of miles the 3 weeks before my record 5k but I had run lots of miles before....I had never run steep hills several days in a row.
AmoresPerros
"Idiot"
 posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:22 PM
Tchuck:

> If I run a 5K at 6:30 pace and do most training runs at 8:30 pace. Well, 8:05 would be somewhat harder.

Hey, I'm similar enough to comment. I find 8:05 feels like work on my starting mile, so I like to start out slower. But after I warm up -- which might take a couple miles depending, and a few days I've gone 5miles and not felt like I ever quite warmed up, but I got tired -- anyway, after I warmup, I might find myself cruising down to 8:05, or even just below 8, without it feeling more difficult.

This does suggest to me that I should be running longer warmups before 5K races, but, I guess I'm too lazy to do so.
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kencamet
posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:35 PM
Quote from AmoresPerros on 7/24/2008 at 2:22 PM:
Tchuck:

> If I run a 5K at 6:30 pace and do most training runs at 8:30 pace. Well, 8:05 would be somewhat harder.

Hey, I'm similar enough to comment. I find 8:05 feels like work on my starting mile, so I like to start out slower. But after I warm up -- which might take a couple miles depending, and a few days I've gone 5miles and not felt like I ever quite warmed up, but I got tired -- anyway, after I warmup, I might find myself cruising down to 8:05, or even just below 8, without it feeling more difficult.

This does suggest to me that I should be running longer warmups before 5K races, but, I guess I'm too lazy to do so.


Did someone say longer warmups before 5K races? I am a firm believer. After never having run a shorter race than a marathon for probably 6 or 7 years I ran my first 10K on 6/1/08. I went to the race and stood around like I do at a marathon (I use the first couple miles as a warmup) and ran a 40:36 on a flat course, perfect weather. I started off way too slow and didn't feel 'fast' until about 1.5 miles into the race. 5 days later I did a 5K but jogged the 4.5 miles to the start and ran 19:24 on a very hilly course. I felt it from the get-go. With proper warmup on that 10K course, on that day I think I was probably good for right at 40min.
What do others do for a warmup routine before a 5K or a 10K race?
2009 Goals:
3000 miles
18:35 5K
39:00 10K
Jim24315
posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:48 PM
Quote from MichiganFlyer on 7/24/2008 at 2:17 PM:
I credit hills with helping me break my PR. I ran 4 days of very steep hills the week before before breaking my 5k PR by 27 seconds.

Sure I ran alot of miles the 3 weeks before my record 5k but I had run lots of miles before....I had never run steep hills several days in a row.



Hills are great, no doubt, but better give some credit to those miles too. IF you were running lots of miles before I didn't notice. It appeared to me that your most miles ever came during the 4-month period up to and including your breakthrough. It will be interesting to see how you do after dropping your miles down again.
Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
JimR
posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:56 PM
Quote from kencamet on 7/24/2008 at 2:35 PM:
What do others do for a warmup routine before a 5K or a 10K race?


I'll park 2 or more miles away and jog to the venue. Saves on parking fees and I get warmed up nice and slow. Once there I'll finish the warmup.

Getting a good proper warmup is critical in a 5k, it's short and you don't want to waste any of it getting up to speed.
Jim24315
posted: 7/24/2008 at 2:56 PM
Quote from kencamet on 7/24/2008 at 2:35 PM:
Did someone say longer warmups before 5K races? I am a firm believer. After never having run a shorter race than a marathon for probably 6 or 7 years I ran my first 10K on 6/1/08. I went to the race and stood around like I do at a marathon (I use the first couple miles as a warmup) and ran a 40:36 on a flat course, perfect weather. I started off way too slow and didn't feel 'fast' until about 1.5 miles into the race. 5 days later I did a 5K but jogged the 4.5 miles to the start and ran 19:24 on a very hilly course. I felt it from the get-go. With proper warmup on that 10K course, on that day I think I was probably good for right at 40min.
What do others do for a warmup routine before a 5K or a 10K race?


I agree that thorough warmups can help a lot, especially before shorter races. I believe you would have gone sub 40 in Marin f you hadn't stood around in the cold beforehand. This is an underrated topic that can make a significant difference.
Masters PR's:
40's - 5k 16:39; 10k 33:48, 10m 56:25, HM 1:15:27, Marathon 2:43:12
50's - couch potato
60's - 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33


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