You have got it right. Increase the ability to run faster for a longer period of time. I would say a lot ultra runners don't do any kind of speed work. Just time of feet. I feel it you want to get faster some kind of speed work is a must. For ultras short intervals wont help much. I love a 8-12 mile progressive or tempo run. I will some times do a long uphill tempo. Any where from 2-10 miles. It is harder to find a 10 mile dirt stretch. During the summer it is easier.

I have a training question regarding ultras. My best ultra was TRT 50 and even though I ran out of gas mentally during a long flat stretch I was able to run a respectable pace. I wasn't out of energy. I was just mentally drained.

 

What purpose does Tempo/VO2 max or threshold have in ultra running? Isn't most ultra running at an aerobic pace? Is all aerobic workout the same?

For example:

3-5 minutes hard with 1 minute jogging recovery VS 40 minutes moderate to hard effort run.

 

I assume the entire purpose is to increase the ability to run fast for a longer period of time. Increase the aerobic capacity = run faster at the same effort. Somehow threshold seems counter productive to this and more "road marathon" specific but it all seems like the purpose is to increase aerobic capacity so it would all work the same way. The difference is "I'm not just doing short intervals or intervals with short recoveries so mentally it is different."

Yes Extreme. Something to work up to. But only works if you have the hills for it. If you don't have that much uphill, Do a rolling hill route. When I am racing a mountain 100 that has 15k-25k of vert, I will do 8-10k vert a week. But I focus more on the runable stuff than the steep power hike.

The workouts below look great for a hill workout. You could do one one week and then the other the next or both in the same week. You want to keep the pace steady. Not easy. Something you can hold for the run and not die.

Coaches can get expensive. My first one was an online coach. $50 a month. But you get what you pay for. He was more of a marathon coach than an ultra coach. I was teaching him things. Its your lucky day. I am a free coach.  I am happy to help out. Feel free to private message me.

 

10 miles of uphill tempo on trail? Seems extreme. Even 8 miles of tempo on trails seems extreme even though it's exactly what I do for road marathons where I've done my best.

Would a 2 mile tempo be around 20 minutes? I'm trying to see what I can get in during the week besides 1,200 ft of gain for 5 days. For some reason I'm thinking I should focus on getting 10,000 ft of vert each week to be a better uphill runner/hiker or possibly build some downhill comfort.

 

Would something like this be a good tempo run?

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/8162609495

6 miles of uphill, and I'd use the first mile for a warm up just because a stop light is there so it is convenient, and what I'd consider the bottom of the hill portion. It's about 3.25 miles of asphalt and another 3 miles of dirt road with various levels of rock exposure.

 

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/14595913644

This is what I run on work. I could go flatter and farther to about 8 miles as an out and back if I turn left at the 3 mile mark.

 

Since I'm too cheap to hire a coach and ultras kind of seem appealing because they're new I kinda want to see if I can get better at them just like I did road marathons.

I have a coach and I do lots of fartleks, hill repeats, and tempo runs. But the suffering comment is funny, because even if you get faster, you still suffer, just not as long. If you're racing it never gets easier, you just get slightly faster 

Running ultras it is encouraged to never do any math in your head, especially regarding time remaining. If you're at mile 75 of a 100 miler and it seems like you have it licked, if you start to do the math in your head and realize that at a 15 minute end of the race pace you still have 6 hours to go it gets discouraging.

Good luck!

Pulse Endurance 48 hour race

When I first decided I wanted to do a 48 hour race, I had no idea how to train for it. I kind of made it up as I went. I took the principles of training for a 100 miler and put it on steroids. It was a 4 month slow build to run 2 marathons in one week and then a 50k plus the next week. I ran more miles than I ever have in 2 months (700 miles). I always did 2 long runs a week. As I got closer to the race I did 3 long runs one week and did a peak week of 97 miles with 8k vert.

I ran my first 24 hour loop race on this course Back in 2017. So I thought it would be awesome if I could run 115 miles the first day and then 85 more the next to make it 200 miles. Little did I know it's not that easy. The race was in Eagle Island State Park. Just outside of Boise ID. The course is a flat 2.5 mile dirt loop through trees, over bridges, with about .2 of a mile asphalt.

The weather started out great with a slight breeze in the mid 50s. The nights were bitter cold. With all the water near by helped it hit low 20s and frosted the ground. When I was running more than walking the first night I stayed warm. But the 2nd night I did more walking and running. It got cold enough to freeze my water bottles a bit at night. During the day it got up to 60 degrees and I started using some cooling techniques.

Race day

The race started at 6 pm on a Thursday. Most races I have run start in the morning and then you get a good night sleep. Before the race started I was already up for 10 hours. I slept a bit on the 5 hour drive north to Boise. I got to the State park with plenty of time to set up my aid station and relax. My daughter and her friend were my crew chefs. I had a simple setup for my aid station. A  table, chair, cooler full of Dew, and snacks. On the table I put strips of duck-tap with numbers 1 to 6. On each number, I could put enough food and fluids that I needed for the hour. This worked great for the night hours when I sent my crew to sleep. They are no good to me during the day if they are too tired. After a few laps, my daughter came back and my aid station got a makeover. My little strips of duck-tap turned into labeled organizer buckets. Then Bright green signs showed up labeled "Chris Krash Crew" and "Let's go Krash". She is one of the best crew chefs. She kept me so organized.

I ran the first lap a bit faster to get it out of my system. There were a few others that went with me. After a few miles I back off to my planned pace. In training I would run 2 miles and then walk for 2 min. That would put me at an average mile pace of 9:30-10:30. I knew I needed to slow down the pace even more to be consistent for 2 days or be able to keep moving. I sent my crew to head back to the house to sleep at about 10 pm. I knew I could manage things alone and I did. What should I drink? Mt. Dew!! Best stuff ever.

Fueling plan

I plan to eat 200-300 cal an hour and drink 16 oz of water or other fluids. I also looked at maximizing the amount of carbs I could consume a hour. I was shooting for 50-90 carbs an hour. I didn't track the carbs as much as I did the cal. I wanted to eat as much real food as possible. I ate from my aid station or main aid station to fill in between my bigger meals. The fillers snackes were fruit snacks (45 cal), granola bars (100), Chocolate pandas (shortbread filled with chocolate, 110 cal), grapes, watermelon, fig bars (200 cal), and pop tarts (175 each). For many hours during the first night I ate a Chalupa and 2 chicken, cheese and rice burritos from Taco Bell. They were so good and hit the spot. When morning came the main aid station was cooking bacon, cheese and egg burritos. I had 2 of them in the first 3 hours. During the night I at least drink 3 cans of Dew. Throughout the whole race I drank 13 cans of Dew and one Redbull. I think that's a record for me. When my daughter came back in the morning she brought me donuts. I think I ate 2 but only remember one of them. Boston cream pie filled, with chocolate on top. ohhhhh yaaa!!

During the day I still ate some of the things from my aid station. I got a few ham sandwiches from the main aid. I had them put some bacon on them. Amazing. Later in the day, I sent my daughter to In-and-Out for a Double Double. I had them cut it in half to make it easier to take with me down the trail to eat on the go. Any time you can eat and run or walk you are moving forward. Burgers are super food. I remember eating a quesadilla that I also put bacon inside. Bacon is amazing trail food.

I hit my 100 miles in 21:23 and then finished the first day with 110 miles. I was still hitting my set paces and felt like I could keep that pace for another day. But I hadn't had any sleep now for 36 hours. I did a pace check to see if I was on pace for my goal. I was hoping to run 200 miles in 2 days. With some quick math AKA internet pace calculator, I had to hold a 16 min pace the rest of the race to make it. That meant I didn't have time to take a nap and I know that was a bad idea. I started picking up the pace. I dropped my back down to 11-12 min pace. I did this for miles until I had a 52 min buffer. I also consulted a friend that runs 6 day loop races on what a good sleep plan was. He advised me to do it early. Get ready for bed with all your warm cloths you will wear when you will get up. Drink a Redbull and sleep for no more than 29 min. If you sleep longer you will be groggy. I had never heard of this way before. I was willing to give it a try.

Guess what? It didn't work. I lay awake hearing everyone around me talk for 20 min. I bagged the plan and got back up to run more. Banking miles and planning sleep were terrible ideas for me. But I didn't know that at the time. Halfway through the race you can have pacers. That's when I picked up Gary. He would stick with me all night. After a few more hours about 30 hours in, I started to fall asleep while walking. Some of my friends have had success with dirt naps. You lie down on the side of the trail wherever you are and sleep. I tried that too. Guess what? It didn't work. I found a sandbag to use as a pillow. Everyone would ask as they passed if I was ok.

The nighttime is when the demons come out. You are tired and sore. Your defenses are down. If you feed that demon it may consume you and you will quit. You are tired, you hear yourself say in your head "Just call it quits now, pack up and go home." "Call your buddy that is coming up the next day to not come, you can't do this." As I walked, my demon got louder and meaner the longer I went on. Then It started to talk out loud. It never has anything good to say. My buddy Gary even reassured me that the demon will go away and things will get better. "You will overcome this" he told me. I wasn't listening. The Demon lashes out with the most negative things I have ever heard them say. I hated the demon for what he was saying to me and my friend Gary. And that Demon is ME! I am my worst nightmare and enemy. I heard more negative and doubtful things come out of my mouth than I ever had. There wasn't much hope and I could hear myself putting me down. I couldn't fix it.

If the demon is left unchecked he will destroy you and you will quit. If you know me, I am always upbeat. I boost others to boost myself. When I start to slip I know what to do to turn it around. I sing a song, I shout, I laugh, I skip, I make airplane arms. I do something to change my attitude. Mtn Dew helps too. But this time, it was much harder to change my way of thinking. Sleep deprivation was part of my problem. I needed to sleep and couldn't. Gary wasn't listening to me and my demon. He always had a comeback for the negative things that came out my mouth. Couldn't have gotten through it without him.

About 2 am I decided to lay down for about 3 hours. I told Gary to wake me up in 3 hours. I felt like I kind of slept and was very warm. I got up and I was still tired. The internal thoughts came back. Part of my head would tell me "don't get up" and the other half is screaming at me "I am not a quitter, why start now?"  Every time I stop, it takes about half a mile to get my legs to run again. Partway through a lap I started to fall asleep walking again. I know I needed to try and sleep some more or I would be a zombie for the rest of the day. So this time I will get when the sun comes up. I wont set an alarm. Just wait till I wake up.

This time when I put my head down I was out. I didn't even roll over. Finally got the sleep I needed. It was only 1.5 hours more. Around 7:30 the sun was starting some come up. My eyes opened and I saw light. I started to stretch and then texted Gary. "It's time to go." Being morning that meant more breakfast burritos. Mmmmm so good.

Sometime around 9 am My buddy Jeff showed up. I changed pacers and was doing some more running. The goal now was to walk at a 15 min pace and then run here and there to drop the pace closer to 13-14 min pace. I wasn't much in a hurry because I thought I was 10-15 miles ahead of the next guy. My pacer promptly informed me that I was only 5 miles ahead of the next guy. That lite a fire in me and I started to push the pace a bit. If you know ultra runners, Math is not their strong suite when tired. Many times I would do the math and say to Jeff. "We are not going to make it." He would look at me like I was crazy and laugh at me. Then corrected my math. Jeff didn't take my crap. I would joke around with him and he would fire shots back. He even threatened to beat me with a stick. I may have deserved it.

Besides the 48 hour race, they had a 24, 12 and 6 hour race. It was great to see new people out running and sometimes fast. Every time a runner or group of runners would start to pass me, I would pick up the pace to chat with them for a bit. Sometimes it was a little faster and others it was a 7-8 min pace. It's amazing what you can do for a short period of time when you are motivated to keep up with someone. You know you don't have to hold it long. On my last full loop, my daughter came with me. We took it easy and ran a bit. Four high school boys came running past me and I thought to myself, "let's see if I can keep up for a bit." Around this time I was at mile 171. I picked up the pace to chat with them. When I looked down at my watch I was running a 6:30 pace. Only ran about a tenth of a mile with them. Any longer I thought I might wear me out too much. Still hoping to hit 175 miles, can't crash and burn yet.

The last hour of every race they open a shorter loop to help you get more miles. The loop was .28 of a mile. If you can't finish the 2.5 mile loop in time, it wont count. The shorter loop is the safer bet for the last hour. I figured that I would need to do about 10 small loops to get my 175 miles. My body was tired, sore and ready to be done. I would run one lap and then walk the next. I had plenty of time to get my goal. Another runner tried to get me to run every lap. I was stubborn and didn't want to. Finally I gave in and ran most of the small loop to keep up with him. I finished 175 with 15 min left. I sat down and called it a day. The same guy pushed me again. "Come walk one more lap with me". I buckled again and had my crew help me get out of my chair. We slowly walk a victory lap Chatting about the good times.

I finished 1st overall by 7 miles and with Many PRs

Most miles ever run - 175.3

Most time running -48 hours

Most Mt. Dews drank during a race - 13 cans (12 oz)

Most sleep during an ultra marathon - 5 hours. It's a guess. I have never slept during an ultra.

Ave pace for race 16:00

My Crew and pacers rock. Couldn't have done it without them.

I may do another one. But not for some time. I learned so much. There are many things I would do different.

A smith good point. I'm trying to remind myself I know what it takes to train for a good performance. Time on feet, two workouts, and a long run. It's just...somehow my brain turns off and I feel like a neophyte when it comes to a distance I'm "unfamiliar" with. I just looked at some training for marathons and its 8-10 hours. sprints/intervals/repeats on the roads are anywhere from 40 seconds all out to 4:39 at a controlled hard effort.

I've been trying to get a friend to try out the Cougar Mountain runs. I think he's a little afraid, and a little uninterested in running for a few hours. Having been there once....I can see the appeal. Awesome news there will be races.

It's like what SeattleMax told me years ago, and I've heard many times....Take what you do for a marathon and do it on hills. Instead of doing 800m repeats or 2x3 mile at goal marathon pace just go run for 20 minutes controlled hard on trails. There is not a secret recipe of "if you do this training plan and hit these paces you'll successfully run the same as someone else." Except hills. Fuck hills. Hills fucking suck. Even when I'm running them as a specific target/goal/training surface to acclimate to maybe a 50k/50 mile in May locally.

nOOky I might also add "don't train on the race course especially the finish' because when your pacer says "you're almost there" you know he's full of shit (unfamiliar with the course and how it will measure long) because you know you're 3 miles away based on that rock right there.

Sometimes doing math in my head helps me calm down. Maybe it's because it gives me a sense of normalcy. If someone started giving me a pop quiz on multiples of 7s during a race it might take my mind off the pain. If only they knew when I was about to get really "weary" as Max called it.

Krash, wow great report! i can totally relate to the demon except in my case it got me...once anyway, but in my defense i had no one to really help. the only friends i had there were also running and desperately trying to get past their own demons. #1 requirement for a pacer should be don't bail! it's really awesome your DD came to help. i love my family dearly but they are nearly useless as crew. ran my first ever 50 miler in san diego and my Bro had the single job of meeting me with an espresso at mile 20. the RD was there and she asked what i needed. i said i was looking for a tall guy looks like me sorta. i ate and returned to the same aid at mile 30 and he was there. he told me the RD spotted him as he showed up and publicly scolded him for being late 😂