Former Bad Ass
Just getting back to the swing of things here. I did the 2400m Hadd Test this morning to get a sense of baseline fitness as I ramp things back up. I totally screwed up the execution of this test. At the higher HR's it was taking so long to get there that I ended up running way too fast, blowing past the target (by a lot) and then slowing WAYYYYYYY down. Well, that's not good... I guess next time, I'll just ease the HR up slowly until I hit the target. I'm not sure if he would take the average pace from the full 2400m or from the point that you hit the target to the end of the interval. Your average HR for the 2400m will always be less than target if that is the case so I'm not sure. I might need to do some digging on this. Some data leading up to this test: Have been nursing my calf muscles back to life after nearly blowing them out in April Marathon. Last 6 weeks Miles Per Week: 45.4 Last 6 weeks Stryd RSS (running stress score): 254.3 For comparisons sake, prior to my last marathon buildup my weekly RSS would vary from about 490 to 650. Results (HR - Pace): 140 bpm - 8:41 150 bpm - 8:04 160 bpm - 7:28 170 bpm - 6:59 180 bpm - 6:26 I will probably re-test in a few weeks or so just to try and get the process down. I wasn't as steady as I should have been but this is pretty close to my current fitness being poor. Have a lot of room for improvement for sure!
Just getting back to the swing of things here. I did the 2400m Hadd Test this morning to get a sense of baseline fitness as I ramp things back up.
I totally screwed up the execution of this test. At the higher HR's it was taking so long to get there that I ended up running way too fast, blowing past the target (by a lot) and then slowing WAYYYYYYY down. Well, that's not good... I guess next time, I'll just ease the HR up slowly until I hit the target. I'm not sure if he would take the average pace from the full 2400m or from the point that you hit the target to the end of the interval. Your average HR for the 2400m will always be less than target if that is the case so I'm not sure. I might need to do some digging on this.
Some data leading up to this test:
Have been nursing my calf muscles back to life after nearly blowing them out in April Marathon.
Last 6 weeks Miles Per Week: 45.4
Last 6 weeks Stryd RSS (running stress score): 254.3
For comparisons sake, prior to my last marathon buildup my weekly RSS would vary from about 490 to 650.
Results (HR - Pace):
140 bpm - 8:41
150 bpm - 8:04
160 bpm - 7:28
170 bpm - 6:59
180 bpm - 6:26
I will probably re-test in a few weeks or so just to try and get the process down. I wasn't as steady as I should have been but this is pretty close to my current fitness being poor. Have a lot of room for improvement for sure!
Maybe this is the type of test that's best to do on the TM where you can control the pace/HR better? Is the test on the HADD thread? Sounds interesting.
Damaris
Yes, this is on the Hadd thread. I just had a hard time controlling my HR/Pace once my HR was in the 160-180 range. The treadmill would be interesting but my pace is significantly faster at all HR's on the treadmill than on a track, so they data wouldn't be all that useful to me.
It would to me since I trained mostly on the TM all year.
Although that might change when I finally get my transfer to Indianapolis.
It would to me since I trained mostly on the TM all year. Although that might change when I finally get my transfer to Indianapolis.
Out of sweaty Florida??
You will still do a lot of treadmill running in the winter but you'll want to be outside a lot now, trust me!
At least their winters are not 10 months long like our summers...
I'm training for the Chicago marathon at completed Week 3 (I think) and my coach had me doing a 5K on the TM to see where I was at during Week 2. It was really hard and I had to step off the TM twice for 1-2 seconds to breathe, but I ran what I was hoping to run. I do find very interesting how I can't raise my HR on the TM as compared to outside, but you know my outside conditions is way more humid than indoors:Here is the time trial I did: GPS Interval Type Distance Duration Elapsed Time Pace Avg HR Max HR Notes 1 Interval 1 mi 8:36 8:36 8:36 137 160 2 Interval 1 mi 8:43 17:19 8:43 158 168 3 Interval 1 mi 8:38 25:57 8:38 159 166 4 Interval 0.11 mi 0:50 26:47 7:35 164 168 Here is my PR 5K years ago outside in feels like WTF: GPS Interval Type Distance Duration Elapsed Time Pace Avg HR Max HR Notes 1 Interval 1 mi 7:43.30 7:43.30 7:44 170 183 2 Interval 1 mi 8:04.83 15:48.13 8:05 179 190 3 Interval 1 mi 8:06.63 23:54.76 8:07 180 187 4 Interval 0.14 mi 1:01.87 24:56.63 7:22 185 191 So technically, I should have been able to run faster per the HR, but I couldn't run any faster than I did on the TM. But still, very happy with that time because that's comparable to the HMP and MP goals I wanted to train with.
I'm training for the Chicago marathon at completed Week 3 (I think) and my coach had me doing a 5K on the TM to see where I was at during Week 2. It was really hard and I had to step off the TM twice for 1-2 seconds to breathe, but I ran what I was hoping to run. I do find very interesting how I can't raise my HR on the TM as compared to outside, but you know my outside conditions is way more humid than indoors:Here is the time trial I did:
Here is my PR 5K years ago outside in feels like WTF:
So technically, I should have been able to run faster per the HR, but I couldn't run any faster than I did on the TM. But still, very happy with that time because that's comparable to the HMP and MP goals I wanted to train with.
Docket, you appear to be very close to PR shape! That's awesome! Can't wait to hear how Chicago goes! At least you wont' have to travel as far.
Thanks! Not sure if I'll fly or drive since the government is so slow I don't even have a start date or anything.
So I re-did the Hadd Test this morning in the following format:5 minute warm up10 minutes @ target 8:00 /mi pace10 minutes @ target 7:3010 minutes @ target 7:0010 minutes @ target 6:3010 minutes @ target 6:155 minute cool downNo rest - all continuous on the track. Actual results: Light breeze. 65 deg, 78% humidity.8:00 - 145 bpm7:29 - 152 bpm6:59 - 161 bpm6:29 - 172 bpm6:14 - 181 bpmI will repeat this test in a month or so and keep the results in a table to track improvements (or lack thereof) over time. Should be interesting!
Hilltopper
And the goal for you for that last target of 6:15 is 170, isn't that correct? So if you keep testing and you hit 170 bpm or less then you in essence have "graduated" to the 175 threshold?
SD, would your LTHR happen to be between 172 and 181 BPM.
I ask because if I convert your paces to velocity in miles per hour, I get this:
If I then do a scatter plot of velocity vs. HR, I get an extremely linear correlation for the first four points. All four points are within 0.5 BPM of the trend line.
And then the 5th point strays off, ending 4 BPM above the line.
That would be a textbook demonstration of the Conconi test if your LTHR happens to be between 172 and 181 BPM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conconi_test
Well, my goal is for 170 to be as fast as possible. According to Hadd, someone doing this test would have their marathon pace line up closely with their 170 bpm pace at this length of time in this type of workout on a track.
Interestingly enough, my Garmin Race Predictor gives me a predicted marathon of around 6:15 pace but this morning's test suggests it's probably closer to 6:35 with current fitness.
SD, would your LTHR happen to be between 172 and 181 BPM. I ask because if I convert your paces to velocity in miles per hour, I get this: Pace Velocity HR min./mile MPH BPM 00:08:00 7.50 145 00:07:29 8.02 152 00:06:59 8.59 161 00:06:29 9.25 172 00:06:14 9.63 181 If I then do a scatter plot of velocity vs. HR, I get an extremely linear correlation for the first four points. All four points are within 0.5 BPM of the trend line. And then the 5th point strays off, ending 4 BPM above the line. That would be a textbook demonstration of the Conconi test if your LTHR happens to be between 172 and 181 BPM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conconi_test
Wow, great work! I don't know what my LTHR is but by feel it HAS to be between 172 and 181. This morning my first 4 ten minute intervals felt smooth and easy. The last interval at 181 felt EXPONENTIALLY tougher than the other 4 and I was breathing pretty hard. I could still talk but probably couldn't get a full sentence out. I wonder if my LTHR is about 175 or 176?
Training is going really well here. I think my calf issues are behind me and I've taken a step back on the volume, at about 65-70 miles per week. I've pretty much temporarily eliminated the Long Run but I run over an hour almost every day. I will introduce 2 hour long runs soon as I ramp up for the marathon.
I'm doing absolutely everything by feel (HR is taking care of itself nicely):
Almost as importantly as to what I am doing, there are certain things I'm NOT doing:
Basically, I don't ruin tomorrow. I'm feeling almost better than ever. My Garmin VO2 Max predictor which had been basically stuck on 58 for a year, has crept up to 62 (I wonder how that works?).
Hey guys, I had a few questions and was looking for some help. I'm trying to get back into health and hopefully back into racing shape ultimately. I'm not in a hurry though.
I used to follow the coolrunning thread way back in the day and have trained with maffetone, hadd and van aaken before and had great results.
I'm very out of shape currently. I feel OK aerobically, but the main thing holding me back is my weight. I'm so far in a hole there, that is going to be at least until the end of the year until I feel like "me" again. Specifically I'm at 325lb. I just ran 4 miles (with walk breaks) at 14:30 pace at 150 average HR with 166 peak HR. I'm 36 so my maf is 144. That's how bad it is.
Main reason that I'm interested in LHR is it enables doing high volume with easy recovery, which is better for me because hard workouts make me hungry .
I'm wanting to start really training with LHR, specifically maffetone, starting tomorrow. And I just don't see it happening except starting with walking, and even then I think it will be 16:00 mpm. Which is fine.
I have a 2400m flat path right by my house, and I'm ok with running it back and forth over and over again so hills aren't an issue.
The questions I have are:
1) is it worth getting the new Maffetone book? I have the yellow book, the Maffetone method, and training for endurance. Is there anything new in the new one? I kind of felt like if you had read training for endurance and had a basic knowledge of endurance sports, the yellow book didn't bring anything new to the table.
2) when I was last training, optical heart rate monitors weren't very mature tech. I think they have advanced a lot, yeah? Do you think they can be used instead of chest-straps for MAF training? I would love it, because I always get chafing. I already bought a Garmin 645 and have an old Garmin chest strap that should work with it, so either is OK. I just want to avoid the chafing if optical is ok.
3) I think I can realistically build up to either: 75 minutes once per day, or 45 minutes twice per day. Which would be better for weight loss and for aerobic foundation to transition into running next year? When I start running again, I will most likely want to focus on 5k/10k. I am thinking the 2x45min, but I know there are benefits to going long that you don't get with short doubles, thoughts?
4) any solution to cardiac drift in extreme heat? I know Phil insists to not modify, and that you're just fatigued, but I wonder if anyone had success doing anything else. I was thinking of setting up a Garmin workout with 45 minutes at MAF and the rest of it at MAF+5. I know Phil would look down on this. I'm in Mississippi so this is very important right now. This is the main reason I'm attracted to short doubles really, to dodge the issue.
Thanks, glad to see the LHR community is still going.
Hi and welcome!
the yellow book is worth it
i train with an optical HR and have been for 5 years. My TomTom is pretty accurate.
for training in the heat, you will always have to adjust even if running by pace so the HR will tell you how much to slow down. Do it at MAF even in the heat.