Hilltopper
Pilates + Plyometrics day. Low back pain is dissipating little by little as I really solidify those hips, core, and all the muscles supporting the spine. Legs a bit sore but overall I feel full of energy and loose. Over 8 hours of sleep last night helps. I am trying to be conscious of that too.
Better sleep results in better recovery, higher T-levels and growth hormone generation. So easy to forget to get enough of it.
Nice run the other day! You're doing awesome.
This morning I ran MAF Test #3
Mile 1: 8:40 145 bpm
Mile 2: 8:33 145 bpm
Mile 3: 8:31 145 bpm
Mile 4: 8:34 145 bpm
Mile 5: 8:35 145 bpm
Avg Pace: 8:35
Trending:
Test #1 - 3/11/17: 8:40
Test #2 - 3/25/17: 8:03
Test #3 - 4/6/17: 8:35
I think there is something to learn from this. Between Test #2 and Test #3 which are about 2 weeks apart, I've run 20 mile runs on back to back weekends. I also ran rolling hills 2 days ago. The second 20 miler had some rolling hills in it but nothing too extreme. I already knew that my MAF test pace was probably starting to slip during the second 20 miler as the first 5 miles were significantly slower than the weekend before. They were on different courses with the first run having a slight net downhill at the start and the 2nd one having a slight net uphill at the start.
There was a pretty substantial dropoff from one long run to the next, followed by a similar drop off in the MAF test. MAF Test #2 was done the day before the 1st 20 miler. The first 20 miler I was on my feet for just over 2 hours 50 minutes and the second one was close to 3 hours flat. I was doing some reading on the MAF long runs and in another forum read that Maffetone claimed in his book (I haven't read it) that you shouldn't run over 2 hours. If that is true that really changes the game for someone like me trying to train for a marathon.
If I stick to the 2 hour rule, I will never get close to a 20 mile run but in theory I could still keep my weekly mileage well within acceptable ranges for preparing for a marathon. I've just been looking at the long run as the most important run of the week and the 20 milers to be the most important of the entire race preparation cycle. Perhaps I've had it all wrong? I'm still relatively new to distance running so I'm still learning.
Does anyone reading have any suggestions or advice?
I would say that you have shown that running 3 hours plus is no issue for you so it isn't a distance challenge per se. What if you upped your total mileage during the week and did your two hour run. I know that Brian Mackenzie recommends no more than a 90 min long run and he has run 100 milers, granted he is a cross fit guy. I have a friend who has done many ultras and his training plan is 7 days per week x 12-13 miles per day. He runs just over a 3 hr marathon. I think the long run where you have to run 20+ miles is an antiquated idea perhaps, but could totally be wrong.
This morning I ran MAF Test #3 Mile 1: 8:40 145 bpm Mile 2: 8:33 145 bpm Mile 3: 8:31 145 bpm Mile 4: 8:34 145 bpm Mile 5: 8:35 145 bpm Avg Pace: 8:35 Trending: Test #1 - 3/11/17: 8:40 Test #2 - 3/25/17: 8:03 Test #3 - 4/6/17: 8:35 I think there is something to learn from this. Between Test #2 and Test #3 which are about 2 weeks apart, I've run 20 mile runs on back to back weekends. I also ran rolling hills 2 days ago. The second 20 miler had some rolling hills in it but nothing too extreme. I already knew that my MAF test pace was probably starting to slip during the second 20 miler as the first 5 miles were significantly slower than the weekend before. They were on different courses with the first run having a slight net downhill at the start and the 2nd one having a slight net uphill at the start. 1st 20 miler 2nd 20 miler Mile 1 8:42 9:02 Mile 2 7:58 8:49 Mile 3 7:57 8:54 Mile 4 8:06 8:48 Mile 5 8:17 8:50 There was a pretty substantial dropoff from one long run to the next, followed by a similar drop off in the MAF test. MAF Test #2 was done the day before the 1st 20 miler. The first 20 miler I was on my feet for just over 2 hours 50 minutes and the second one was close to 3 hours flat. I was doing some reading on the MAF long runs and in another forum read that Maffetone claimed in his book (I haven't read it) that you shouldn't run over 2 hours. If that is true that really changes the game for someone like me trying to train for a marathon. If I stick to the 2 hour rule, I will never get close to a 20 mile run but in theory I could still keep my weekly mileage well within acceptable ranges for preparing for a marathon. I've just been looking at the long run as the most important run of the week and the 20 milers to be the most important of the entire race preparation cycle. Perhaps I've had it all wrong? I'm still relatively new to distance running so I'm still learning. Does anyone reading have any suggestions or advice?
Former Bad Ass
Pilates is always great for the back, Hilltopper! Glad it's helping.
Ran 7 on the TM last night since it was 95F. Also went to Pilates.
Tonight, I have Pilates and 6 miles.
Damaris
I think you're right. Between MAF tests 1 and 2 in which I improved my pace from 8:40 to 8:03, my 2 long runs were almost exactly 2 hours each. My runs during the week were almost all at 90 minutes except for the recovery runs of 45 minutes and a few 60 minute runs. That must be my winning formula!!!
I wonder if the 20 mile idea didn't come from people simply copying elite runners who are running at an easy pace of 6:00 which just happens to be exactly 2 hours...
I'd say "ahhhh hah!" How exciting to say the least. If it translates that is 16 mins over the course of 26 miles. I think the 20 mile runs come from faux science that suggests that you have to be able to run 20+ miles if you are gonna run 26 miles but it really doesn't matter. The 2 hour runs are more than enough to build what you need to be fast at 26 miles. Even though you were focusing on training at or below Maf, you still have that old notion about mileage that creeps into the formula. And the truth shall set you free!
I think you're right. Between MAF tests 1 and 2 in which I improved my pace from 8:40 to 8:03, my 2 long runs were almost exactly 2 hours each. My runs during the week were almost all at 90 minutes except for the recovery runs of 45 minutes and a few 60 minute runs. That must be my winning formula!!! I wonder if the 20 mile idea didn't come from people simply copying elite runners who are running at an easy pace of 6:00 which just happens to be exactly 2 hours...
If I was to do 90 minute runs only I would never be able to run a marathon, since 90 minutes for me is 7-8 miles. :-)
I ran a 5K on Saturday (15 miles total for the day) and 16 miles yesterday. I think the knee is back.
If I was to do 90 minute runs only I would never be able to run a marathon, since 90 minutes for me is 7-8 miles. :-) I ran a 5K on Saturday (15 miles total for the day) and 16 miles yesterday. I think the knee is back.
If you can run 16 miles in a day, then you definitely have the knee back. That's awesome!!
I don't think that 90 minutes would be your long run. For me, I'm tailoring the rest of my training plan to have 60-90 minute weekday runs with a 2 hour run on the weekend. This weekend I ran 60 minutes one day and 120 minutes the next for a total of 3 hours of running which was over 20 miles.
Now that I'm over 3 months of MAF training and have a marathon 8 weeks out, I'm introducing some anaerobic work. I plan on having well over 90% of my miles at MAF or lower. No short intervals. The anaerobic work will be the final few miles of the long run and will be target marathon pace or faster. I will be doing MAF tests on an outdoor track every 2 weeks, the day before my long run.
Long Run - 2 hours - 10 miles @ Sub MAF continuing into 4 miles @ sub target marathon pace
Mile 1: 9:53 132 bpm
Mile 2: 8:37 141 bpm
Mile 3: 9:16 141 bpm
Mile 4: 9:11 142 bpm
Mile 5: 9:08 141 bpm
Mile 6: 9:08 141 bpm
Mile 7: 9:15 140 bpm
Mile 8: 9:38 141 bpm
Mile 9: 9:25 141 bpm
Mile 10: 9:45 142 bpm
Mile 11: 6:48 170 bpm
Mile 12: 6:40 176 bpm
Mile 13: 6:21 181 bpm
Mile 14: 6:16 187 bpm
I was actually surprised at how high my HR got during the fast finish. Either my Max HR is higher than I thought it was or my HRM was reporting high numbers. I'm considering running the marathon to HR instead of a target pace but figuring out what HR to run it at is another story. Obviously it will be way slower than the last 4 miles of this run at a lower HR.
Does anyone know how to find our Marathon Pace HR? A quick Google search and I found 80-85% of Max HR or 88% to 90% for an aerobically fit runner.
Mine is 155 based on experience, and my Max is 196, so mine is around 80%.
Thank you for the feedback, Docket. Did you run to that HR as a target, run by feel, or dial into a target pace?
I targeted the HR and since then, all my PRs and best marathons (how I felt, how I performed) came when I kept the 155 HR for most of the race.
That's awesome! I think that is probably the best way to go, especially when there are questions about how to adjust target pace for elevation changes, pesky wind, temperature, humidity, etc. I'm pretty sure that if a person picks the correct HR target and stays close to it, that it will result in very close to the best possible finish for that day. What concerns me is that I'm going to pick the wrong HR target and end up bonking.
Then reassess and run another marathon, doh!
Good point! I wish there just wasn't so much time in between them. But you're right, anything I do as a newbie will be a guess.